This hand felt soo UUUUGGGGHHHHH

[Dire]

Because 4-betting ranges are polarized. He usually has either a monster that AK sucks against, or a hand that AK has almost no implied odds against. Made even more fun by you being out of position.

[Dan Bitel]

[ QUOTE ]
didnt i? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

also if you do hit A/K QQ or less aint putting too much money in anyway

[/ QUOTE ]

do you think he's not cbetting then?

[Unknown Soldier]

maybe if he has air on an A high flop, but still unlikely imo. K high flop and you probably won't get one, QQ definitely won't unless he's bad.

[Dan Bitel]

so if he's not going to be cbetting...surely we a) get lots of cards for free and b) can just check it down vs his 4bet bluffs....no?

[cbloom]

dbitel,

if you're calling, you have very minimal implied odds.

if his range is very tight to 4bet, you should just fold

if his range is wider, he has a lot of hands which will fold to a shove but are actually favorites against you (stuff like TT-JJ). The hands that are behind you will take the pot with a cbet if you don't bluff a lot of flops which it sounds like you aren't. So I think shoving is better than calling if his range is wide.

I guess you could call if you don't have a good idea of his range, but if you do have an idea then either folding or shoving is better.

[Dan Bitel]

cbloom,

I don't have a great idea of his range, I'm just trying to guess.

Also, if we shove preflop, we're not getting great odds on it (due to the deeper stacks and our bad equity when called) IMO

[cbloom]

[ QUOTE ]
cbloom,

I don't have a great idea of his range, I'm just trying to guess.

Also, if we shove preflop, we're not getting great odds on it (due to the deeper stacks and our bad equity when called) IMO

[/ QUOTE ]

He only has 150 BB and he's already put in 36 BB so you are getting very good odds to shove if his range is wide. That's a better ratio than just shoving over a normal 3bet which is known to be very +EV. If AA,KK is too much of his range then you should just fold.

[Jay Riall]

I usually fold or push here depending on whether I think I can profitably shove vs villain. I never call here, but I could be convinced otherwise I guess.

[Unknown Soldier]

[ QUOTE ]
so if he's not going to be cbetting...surely we a) get lots of cards for free and b) can just check it down vs his 4bet bluffs....no?

[/ QUOTE ]

good point, dont hate calling then.

Still prefer shove/fold though. the unpredictibility of villains being the main reason i guess. Some might cbet, some might not etc (stil think they probably wont, but if it gets checked down to the river they might take a stab and put you on AK, idk). Plus his bluffs w/ hands ike 87s have good equity vs you if you check it down. Whereas you can pick it up pf if you shove. Unlikely he has AA/KK too.

[carrotsnake]

dbitel, RIO says do not call, as well as every fiber of my bones and every calcium spot of my muscles!