KJo small blind

[Oink]

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I fire again and c/f the river unimproved.

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Turn (2 players, 3.75 BB)
6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero bets, BB raises, hero calls

River
K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero checks, BB bets, hero folds

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River c/f is terrible. Bet for value. Remember he is peeling with so much crap on the turn cuz of the many draws

bet >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t; c/c >> c/f

[BigBadBabar]

call the river

[Zeldark]

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4/8 foxwoods
BB practices some hand selection
Button is a moron (as evinced by openlimping button)

No one's been playing back at me really

Hero has K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in SB
Button limps, Hero raises, both call

Flop (3 players, 5.5 SB)
A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
<font color="red">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, button folds

Turn (2 players, 3.75 BB)
6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
<font color="red">Hero bets</font>, <font color="red">BB raises</font>, hero calls

River (2 players, 7.7 5BB)
K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
<font color="green">Hero ?</font>

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What hands is he taking this line with that we beat?
Are you doing a B/C or a B/F?

[BigBadBabar]

zeldark feel free to answer those questions yourself

[CrMenace]

grunch

Upside to betting: I may be ahead, may get villain to fold a winner, and I have a big draw if he raises and I'm behind. If I'm ahead, I don't want to give villain a free card. Also if I check, I'm calling anyway, so as a rule of thumb betting is likely superior.

Downside to betting: I'm having trouble thinking of winners that villain would fold... 9's are an obvious choice as are medium pairs. Also, if raised, I know I have to call- so the risk of the raise is more menacing than if I had a weaker hand. Finally, the pot is small, so I'm not that worried about taking it down or giving a free card.

On the balance, I think the arguments for c/c outweigh the benefits of betting. Reassess on the river.

[CrMenace]

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Remember he is peeling with so much crap on the turn cuz of the many draws

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Villain didn't peel the turn, he raised.

You're ahead of a 9 or a busted flush, or a stone bluff. Is that 12% of the time? Nah...

[Man of Means]

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Turn (2 players, 3.75 BB)
6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero bets, BB raises, hero calls
River
K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero checks, BB bets, hero folds

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River c/f is terrible. Bet for value. Remember he is peeling with so much crap on the turn cuz of the many draws

bet &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g t; c/c &gt;&gt; c/f

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he raised the turn. raise =/= peel

what happened was I checked, he bet river and said "if you got there you got there" and I was like "hwhat? got hwhere?" and i forget what happened but i saw an Ace and folded; he then showed a deuce also. But in all likelihood he's got an ace or flush here &gt;&gt; 88% of the time. almost no one in this game jerks the turn on a bluff.
online i'd sometimes call.
I don't see what a bet accomplishes so it's either c/f (i missed) or c/c (pick off the semi bluff)

[CrMenace]

This post reminds me of one of my favorites. Here's a relevant quote (note bolded section, my emphasis):

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So suppose we bet the turn. When we c-bet the turn, we are obviously rooting for villain to fold, so we know what a “good” result is. What is a “bad” result? Bad results come in two flavors:

1. Villain calls. This is bad because it means we’re either behind, or villain has made a “correct” decision to pursue his draw. Depending on our position and the likelihood that villain is drawing, this may not be terrible, but it isn’t usually what we want to see.

2. Villain raises or checkraises. On one hand, this is bad for the same reason (1) is bad; we’re out 1 bb. Where this is really bad is when we have a hand with enough outs that we’re forced to call the raise. This is a point that’s worth repeating because even many intermediate players completely misunderstand it. When you c-bet the turn with a good draw and get raised, it is a disaster.

Many players don’t get this concept. They raise preflop, flop the nut flush draw, and fire away on the flop (correctly). They then continue on the turn, get checkraised by their single opponent, and figure “Oh well I have so many outs I don’t mind getting raised.” This is wrong, because villain has played optimally against your hand. You lose according to the Fundamental Theorem of Poker.

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[Zeldark]

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What hands is he taking this line with that we beat?
Are you doing a B/C or a B/F?

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zeldark feel free to answer those questions yourself

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I was asking Oink who is again very assertively voicing how horrible a certain play is. In this case the C/F.

Pre-post edit: In your defense Oink, it seems that you didn't notice that he raised the turn, which would affect your river advice. Is this the case?

Discussion is goot.

[00Snitch]

I bet this turn because I think we have some fold equity. It's a bit hard to tell vs an open limping button. Is he going to call all the way down with a small pp? Is he going to call his 9x too? I would want to know that he has the ability to fold those hands.

I going to say check/fold the river. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]