25nl KTs vs flop donk

[Briman51]

I think preflop, the hand isn't strong enough to b raising with as the blinds and button are still to act. Also, the hand can play quite nicely in a multiway pot as it can hit flushes and some unlikely straights, I definately prefer calling to see what the blinds and button do before comitting too many chips.

[XHitman014]

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I think preflop, the hand isn't strong enough to b raising with as the blinds and button are still to act. Also, the hand can play quite nicely in a multiway pot as it can hit flushes and some unlikely straights, I definately prefer calling to see what the blinds and button do before comitting too many chips.

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The goal is to steal the button and take down the free blinds/play the hand in position. The last thing I want to do is play a vulnerable hand OOP in a multiway pot (which is likely to happen if we limp).

[Perk76]

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Boooo. Raise or fold any hand you want to play after one limper. SOLID ADVICE

[/ QUOTE ]I disagree. If the limper is a total calling station and has a c-bet fold of <40% I think limping behind a good amount of hands is good because he won't fold in a limped pot either where if you hit you can build a pot with position against the bad player.

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The first poster said it best in the part I bolded. The second part of the quote is a wrong statement IMO. Your raising to eliminate the other players and keep the bad player in. So what if he calls all the time, he is playing OOP for the rest of the hand. You can abuse him religously throughout a session.

Over limping and inviting other players in the pot is an invitation to go broke post flop, hence the "dont go broke in unraised pots term".

Plus your raising alot more hands, and it will help get action on your power hands.

[Nottom]

Isn't isolating weak players the way to make money in this game? Raising here seems pretty standard.

[jessyj07]

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Over limping and inviting other players in the pot is an invitation to go broke post flop, hence the "dont go broke in unraised pots term".

Plus your raising alot more hands, and it will help get action on your power hands.

[/ QUOTE ]if you don't suck postflop this won't happen. I'm not going to play a huge pot with one pair. I'm all for isolating and image plays...I was talking about hands like 68o and 56o in my post not hands like KTs and 78s which are instant raises for me here for reasons which seem to be apparant to you.

[monkover]

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PF meh.

Postflop, nh.

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Why is PF "meh"? Isn't this a pretty standard raise from the CO with only one limper?

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i think aj has more knowledge than me but this is my default play... this is prob due to different playing styles though.

[Perk76]

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if you don't suck postflop this won't happen. I'm not going to play a huge pot with one pair. I'm all for isolating and image plays...I was talking about hands like 68o and 56o in my post not hands like KTs and 78s which are instant raises for me here for reasons which seem to be apparant to you.

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I am not following where you were talking about 68o or 56o and not KTs type hands since the OP played a KTs. Also seems like the better you are post flop, the more times you would want to raise preflop and isloate the initial limper to build the pot, instead of playing limped pots.

The general idea from AJ and I agree is that you shouldnt be limping at all when 2nd limper. I am not going to limp 86o or 56o not ever. I guess thats a different style.

[Briman51]

I agree that the idea is to get rid of the blinds and button to play the hand in position against the limper. This should allow Hero to win a small pot frequently. Assuming the button isn't a perceptive and creative player then we should get away with this everytime the button and blinds don't wake up with a real hand. However, if the button is perceptive, then he can reraise, the limper will have a very tough time calling as Hero is still to act even if he does call, also, Hero will be out of position after a call with (often) marginal hands.

I think that KTs is just a hand that's too poor to be raising with. It's dominated by so many playable hands. I'd prefer to raise with low suited connectors, where it's unlikely that you'll get into trouble, if you catch a bit of the flop.

Finally, I think that in a heads up pot the value of position is much lower than in a multiway pot. This is because the OOP player can just bet the pot size regardless of the flop which means that you can only really play if you hit the flop otherwise you're folding, or risking alot of chips to bluff at him. As you're only hitting the flop about 35% of the time you're going to be in a bad spot post flop assuming he bets. As it turns out he does bet the pot size but we have a hand, we still don't know where we are. I'd say calling has the value of being able to win a big pot with about the same risk (assuming we can get away from top pair if opponents get aggresive).

I suppose it tepends on your style and the quality of the post-flop play of you and your opponents. I just prefer to see lots of cheap flops.

[Perk76]

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Finally, I think that in a heads up pot the value of position is much lower than in a multiway pot.

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Wow. I think this is very broad statement. I am interested in more on your thoughts on this.

FWIW, I believe HU position is alot more important than multiway, since with multiway pots, you are protected from straight steals and can play the odds more. And in your example if someone is consistently thowing a pot sized flop bet at you each time, they will lose alot of money due to position. Its easy to adjust to this.

[jessyj07]

AJ said that you should never limp behind a limper, i was talking about limping behind a limper with garbage, not hands as good as the OP posted.