bankroll management and winrate

[Silent A]

[ QUOTE ]
So for Blinds 1 cent two cent you guys would suggest $160?

I think if you give a guy who knows the rules and can fold second nuts easily like $30, he would easily build up a BR from Microstakes.

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The simple 40 buy-in "rule" is meant to apply at 0.25/0.50 and above. At these stakes you can't expect to earn much more then 10 ptBB/100 hands (or anywhere near it beyond 2/4).

However, at 0.10/0.25 and below your potential WR can be considerably higher, thus allowing a good player to safely play a much smaller bankroll.

Also, the 40 buy-in assumes you buy in for 100 BB. Since you can buy-in for 200+ BBs at the very lowest stakes it does really apply.

So, when you get all the way down to 0.01/0.02 stakes, where it's possible to sustain win rates over 20 ptBB/100 (probably much higher) and where you can buy in for 250 BB, 6 buy-ins is probably pretty safe for most knowledgeable players.

[iggymcfly]

I think a good rule of thumb is that you need twice as many buy-ins for PLO as you do for NLHE. So, with 20 BI, you have a pretty good shot to make things work if you don't tilt, but it can still go badly. With 50 BI, you can feel comfortable as long as you're a solid winner. And if you really, really want to be safe and make sure you never go broke because you need the money to feed your family, then you might want to use 100 BI.

Winrate's really really variable depending on the site you play on, your style, the stakes, HU vs. 6-max vs. FR, etc., but I think the upper bound's probably somewhere around 20 PTBB/100 if you're playing reasonable stakes.

[Elrazor]

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Can a good player make 15BB/100 at the lower stakes (PLO100 and lower)?

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anything up to $1/50 this is probably where you should be before considering moving up. i played a nitty 5000 hands at FT last month and was running at 15ptBB/1000 - small hand sample i know but i selected my tables well and regularly got people stacking off with second best flushes and nut flushes v full house

[Troll_Inc]

[ QUOTE ]
I think a good rule of thumb is that you need twice as many buy-ins for PLO as you do for NLHE. So, with 20 BI, you have a pretty good shot to make things work if you don't tilt, but it can still go badly. With 50 BI, you can feel comfortable as long as you're a solid winner. And if you really, really want to be safe and make sure you never go broke because you need the money to feed your family, then you might want to use 100 BI.


[/ QUOTE ]

NittyMcFly!

Unless you are maxed out at the highest levels (i.e. probably almost none of us), you are giving away money not being more aggressive moving up (and down). MOP has a good discussion on this.

Also, if someone is playing 1c/2c and can't buyin for a $100 they should go get like a job or something and not be wasting their time playing poker.

[donkeykong2]

i think you shouldnt need more than 15 buyins at 12/25c as you will get donated full buyins pretty regularly.
people are usually passive which should reduce your variance as you dont need to flip so often.

[2handed]

I agree, if you can play this game even adequately well you dont really need more than 20 buyins (if that) for any level below 50 dollar buyin online.

[iggymcfly]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think a good rule of thumb is that you need twice as many buy-ins for PLO as you do for NLHE. So, with 20 BI, you have a pretty good shot to make things work if you don't tilt, but it can still go badly. With 50 BI, you can feel comfortable as long as you're a solid winner. And if you really, really want to be safe and make sure you never go broke because you need the money to feed your family, then you might want to use 100 BI.


[/ QUOTE ]

NittyMcFly!

Unless you are maxed out at the highest levels (i.e. probably almost none of us), you are giving away money not being more aggressive moving up (and down). MOP has a good discussion on this.

Also, if someone is playing 1c/2c and can't buyin for a $100 they should go get like a job or something and not be wasting their time playing poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm anything but a nit, believe me, especially when it comes to BR management. Did you read the whole post or just the last two words? I was basically saying that you should start with 20 buy-ins and you were completely safe with 50 if you were a solid winner.

In practice, I don't even hold to that very often, but it seems like the "right" way to do things. Maybe this is colored a little bit by my experiences in the 5/10 game on Bodog when I'd regularly be getting 5+ buy-ins in on one coin flip. I know that I didn't feel comfortable in that game until I had 50K.

The 100 BI was just a guess for a more marginal winner who really needed the money to support themselves. I guess if you move down limits easily when things are going bad, that makes things easier too, but I hate doing that and am very bad at it. Usually, when I'm playing a limit regularly, the only way I'll stop is if I go completely busto. I might play a couple sessions at a lower limit, but I'm certainly not waiting to get back to any buy-in to move back up.

[Troll_Inc]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm anything but a nit, believe me, especially when it comes to BR management. Did you read the whole post or just the last two words? I was basically saying that you should start with 20 buy-ins and you were completely safe with 50 if you were a solid winner.

[/ QUOTE ]

At the lower levels, I can't see more than 20 buyins being necessary. Seems like 20+ is not necessary for people like you that play crazily aggressive to get a lot of money at the table. It is very rare (for me) to see 200bb+ deep stacks at tables under 2/4 or 3/6 (I only play FT and Stars though). Most of the times people either hit and run or are just not that comfortable playing deepstacked and therefore flee the table.

And added to it, anyone asking this question probably doesn't have enough information to know if they are a winning player. For those players, I can't imagine recommending more than 20 buyins. It'd probably be better to say if you had $500 to lose, do 500/10=$50 per buyin and just play the 25c/50c ($50) buyin tables.

[Troll_Inc]

Article in this month's magazine:
http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/c...kratz0707.html

And discussion:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...;gonew=1#UNREAD

Best reference: I think the best discussion of the subject is MOP's bankroll section.

[CrushinFelt]

God damn it. Now I have to finally buy PT. This finally persuaded me as I'm just too curious to see win rate and stdev to not get it. Also, aggression factors are something else I would like to see for people. VPIP and PFR seem less important to me which is why I haven't gotten this yet.

I hope PTO is reliable. I haven't done any real research on it yet.