Help Me Get More Value - Page 2

UtzChips · #11 06-18-2007, 02:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is an extremely standard continuation bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand Oink. I'm considering the fact, that if I had not 3-bet preflop I would have had the option of ck/raising.
I don't know that it would be the right play. I seldom ck/raise w/o made hands.

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: UtzChips is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, Button raises, SB calls, UtzChips 3-bets, UTG folds, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, UtzChips bets, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, UtzChips bets, Button calls, SB calls.

You see, everyone slowed down. Now comes the sweet ending.
[img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

After the hand I thought: Man did I play that one wrong. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

River: (9.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, UtzChips checks, Button bets, SB calls, UtzChips raises, Button folds, SB calls.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

ILOVEPOKER929 · #12 06-18-2007, 02:13 PM

The only street you [censored] up is the river.

sethypooh21 · #13 06-18-2007, 02:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I seldom ck/raise w/o made hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a fairly sever conceptual error on your part. A C/R on this flop is for VALUE - you don't have the 'best' hand currently, but you almost certainly have the most equity on this flop with gutter to the nuts, 2nd nut flush draw and 2 overs.

SSHE has a really good discussion of raising for equity multiway, and I would suggest you read/reread the relevant portions.

emKay · #14 06-18-2007, 02:21 PM

Okaaaay there is a forum called BBV.
On the flop, you got 12 outs to the nuts + 6 pair outs that may or may not be good, your equity is HUGE so bet. And for the sake of god, bet that river!

danzasmack · #15 06-18-2007, 02:26 PM

"I'm considering the fact, that if I had not 3-bet preflop I would have had the option of ck/raising."

3+1 = 2+2

Utz this is a super results oriented post. That's all i've got for you. Your decisiong making process pf is shotty IMO. I really don't care what number said what about who and this and that and this guy. If you are uncomfortable with a draw OOP you should 3-bet pf a lot more often.

While you are regretting it this time, keep in mind when you just call pf and have KQ on an A74r you are going to be making a losing play a lot more often.

Think of why you're wondering if what you did what the right play and then you'll realize why wondering why for the reasons you wondered why is wrong.

UtzChips · #16 06-18-2007, 02:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The only street you [censored] up is the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think I got lucky there?

I was thinking, that since Button raised PF & they both slowed down PF beginning on the Flop; the Turn brought a Straight & the River brought a Flush, a Boat and a Straight Flush, nobody was calling unless they had something.

I wouldn't bet the Nut Flush here, if checked to. However, in this micro limit, when the guy leading the betting gives up on the River when it brings so many hands, somebody is betting probably 90% of the time.

I mean, what Flush is calling here? The ace high. I've got the KQ and the JT9 are on the board. Maybe the Button had the Ace high.

The guy in the SB......he called me because he had a Jack.
J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Now, if he'll call with Trips......imagine what Button was betting with. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

You know what Button, who sees 76% of the flops from Button was thinking on the River? He was thinking, my God! They've both checked because the River made so many hands! I can buy this.

When you have 1 player who can't lay down Trips against a possible Str8, Flush, Boat..........

I did feel as if I got real lucky on the River though. That's because I did. I got, almost, the max I was going to get out of that River.

The River is the Street I screwed up on though.

danzasmack · #17 06-18-2007, 02:38 PM

"I wouldn't bet the Nut Flush here, if checked to."

What?

UtzChips · #18 06-18-2007, 02:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
"I'm considering the fact, that if I had not 3-bet preflop I would have had the option of ck/raising."

3+1 = 2+2

Utz this is a super results oriented post. That's all i've got for you. Your decisiong making process pf is shotty IMO. I really don't care what number said what about who and this and that and this guy. If you are uncomfortable with a draw OOP you should 3-bet pf a lot more often.

While you are regretting it this time, keep in mind when you just call pf and have KQ on an A74r you are going to be making a losing play a lot more often.

Think of why you're wondering if what you did what the right play and then you'll realize why wondering why for the reasons you wondered why is wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't so much results oriented. Someone did mention the fact that since Button only raises 10% PF, He may have had me dominated.

So, if in the future, I run into this situation again, where the Button (who see 56% of the flops, 75% of them when on the Button, and only raises 15% when on the Button)
raises, I should discount his raise and 3-bet?

You are right. I found the strength of betting your draws when OOP a long time ago. I'm loving it. I have no trouble betting out on the Flop in this situation. I do it with less.

UtzChips · #19 06-18-2007, 02:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
"I wouldn't bet the Nut Flush here, if checked to."

What?

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. I think I get raised with better hand more often than I get called with a worse hand.

UtzChips · #20 06-18-2007, 03:01 PM

"SSHE has a really good discussion of raising for equity multiway, and I would suggest you read/reread the relevant portions."

I have the book and will read it again.

When I said I don't ck/raise, I was talking about later streets, and, this type situation on the Flop; ie., I 3 bet the Button, who has position on me and he didn't 4 bet it.

Now either he is waiting to pop me back, or he isn't as strong as he advertised PF. In any event, I win by betting out on the Flop: 1. He's strong and raises. 2. He's weak and has to call.