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#11
06-18-2007, 06:48 AM
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Re: Unsuited connectors in the blinds.
I prefer JT on that flop, that's why I wouldn't mind tossing neither 87 nor 54 there 4-way faced with action. Those hands are really not there to make good high pairs.
54o and 87o make the same number of straights if I'm informed correctly, therefore it's no problem playing this hand for me. The reason I say 54o is easier (not really better, just easier) to play is that straights won't be in opponent's range too often whereas something like 78 on a 89TJ board is far trickier than 45 on 5678. Also you won't get drawn into middle pair spots very often that can become quite hard to play in a multi-way pot without a kicker. 87o has super low eq. advantage over 54o preflop multi-way also. There's almost no difference. 
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#12
06-18-2007, 06:59 AM
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Re: Unsuited connectors in the blinds.
[ QUOTE ]
The reason I say 54o is easier (not really better, just easier) to play is that straights won't be in opponent's range too often whereas something like 78 on a 89TJ board is far trickier than 45 on 5678. Also you won't get drawn into middle pair spots very often that can become quite hard to play in a multi-way pot without a kicker. [/ QUOTE ] I disagree with this. 54o is no easier to play than 87o and with 87o a TP hand is more likely to hold up. Does it sound wrong to anyone else that it's better to play a hand that's more likely to flop bottom pair than one that's more likely to flop middle pair?
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#13
06-18-2007, 07:09 AM
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Re: Unsuited connectors in the blinds.
bottom pair no kicker and middle pair no kicker aren't much different in a multi-way pot. that's all i'm saying. come river you'll have most situations being up against at least 2 over cards, more straight draws against you with 87o than 54o in general, etc. it's not better to have 54o, but certainly not any worse than 87o facing multi-way action from SB. being OTB with this hand is something else, from SB it doesn't change much.
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#14
06-18-2007, 07:37 AM
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Re: Unsuited connectors in the blinds.
87o also makes better straights. Actually maybe 67 is best because you can get lots of action when the board reads 2345.
Also your two pair get counterfeited less often with 87 than with 54. I complete both hands against two limpers, if only to make me seem looser. I would muck 43o though because of less straight possibilities.
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#15
06-18-2007, 07:50 AM
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Re: Unsuited connectors in the blinds.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] The reason I say 54o is easier (not really better, just easier) to play is that straights won't be in opponent's range too often whereas something like 78 on a 89TJ board is far trickier than 45 on 5678. Also you won't get drawn into middle pair spots very often that can become quite hard to play in a multi-way pot without a kicker. [/ QUOTE ] I disagree with this. 54o is no easier to play than 87o and with 87o a TP hand is more likely to hold up. Does it sound wrong to anyone else that it's better to play a hand that's more likely to flop bottom pair than one that's more likely to flop middle pair? [/ QUOTE ] I'm not looking to flop a pair. I'm getting 6:1 on my money with odds of 5.6:1 of flopping either a Straight, Straight Draw, 2-Pair, Trips, Full House or Quads. When I flop a pair on a Flop of QT5, I am not paying another bet to try and get 2 pair, unless I am getting a lot more than 8:1 on my money and I don't have to worry about being up against players that slowplay two pair on the Flop. The way I look at it: I paid 1/2 a bet to flop something stronger than 1 little pair, was getting decent money odds on it, it didn't happen. Next hand. Playing beyond a Flop of QT5 is kind of like playing K5s, flopping a pair of kings to a KJ9 board against 3 players and continuing on, all of who call the lead out bettor. I think you lose money there long-term.
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#16
06-18-2007, 07:59 AM
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Re: Unsuited connectors in the blinds.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] The reason I say 54o is easier (not really better, just easier) to play is that straights won't be in opponent's range too often whereas something like 78 on a 89TJ board is far trickier than 45 on 5678. Also you won't get drawn into middle pair spots very often that can become quite hard to play in a multi-way pot without a kicker. [/ QUOTE ] I disagree with this. 54o is no easier to play than 87o and with 87o a TP hand is more likely to hold up. Does it sound wrong to anyone else that it's better to play a hand that's more likely to flop bottom pair than one that's more likely to flop middle pair? [/ QUOTE ] I'm not looking to flop a pair. I'm getting 6:1 on my money with odds of 5.6:1 of flopping either a Straight, Straight Draw, 2-Pair, Trips, Full House or Quads. When I flop a pair on a Flop of QT5, I am not paying another bet to try and get 2 pair, unless I am getting a lot more than 8:1 on my money and I don't have to worry about being up against players that slowplay two pair on the Flop. The way I look at it: I paid 1/2 a bet to flop something stronger than 1 little pair, was getting decent money odds on it, it didn't happen. Next hand. Playing beyond a Flop of QT5 is kind of like playing K5s, flopping a pair of kings to a KJ9 board against 3 players and continuing on, all of who call the lead out bettor. I think you lose money there long-term. [/ QUOTE ] Did you read the posts before making this response, cause this seems totally taken out of context to me.
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#17
06-18-2007, 08:11 AM
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Re: Unsuited connectors in the blinds.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] The reason I say 54o is easier (not really better, just easier) to play is that straights won't be in opponent's range too often whereas something like 78 on a 89TJ board is far trickier than 45 on 5678. Also you won't get drawn into middle pair spots very often that can become quite hard to play in a multi-way pot without a kicker. [/ QUOTE ] I disagree with this. 54o is no easier to play than 87o and with 87o a TP hand is more likely to hold up. Does it sound wrong to anyone else that it's better to play a hand that's more likely to flop bottom pair than one that's more likely to flop middle pair? [/ QUOTE ] I'm not looking to flop a pair. I'm getting 6:1 on my money with odds of 5.6:1 of flopping either a Straight, Straight Draw, 2-Pair, Trips, Full House or Quads. When I flop a pair on a Flop of QT5, I am not paying another bet to try and get 2 pair, unless I am getting a lot more than 8:1 on my money and I don't have to worry about being up against players that slowplay two pair on the Flop. The way I look at it: I paid 1/2 a bet to flop something stronger than 1 little pair, was getting decent money odds on it, it didn't happen. Next hand. Playing beyond a Flop of QT5 is kind of like playing K5s, flopping a pair of kings to a KJ9 board against 3 players and continuing on, all of who call the lead out bettor. I think you lose money there long-term. [/ QUOTE ] Did you read the posts before making this response, cause this seems totally taken out of context to me. [/ QUOTE ] My bad. I interpeted the guy you were responding to, as meaning it's easier to let go of a pair of 5s than it is to let go of a pair of 8s. Some don't have the discipline. I took what you meant, as 8s have enough value, as compared to 5s, that you would continue on much more often postflop with only a pair. No matter what the connected cards are, it's not the lone pair I'm paying for. I remember that and don't get tied to the hand.
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#18
06-18-2007, 08:51 AM
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Re: Unsuited connectors in the blinds.
[ QUOTE ]
54o and 87o make the same number of straights if I'm informed correctly, [/ QUOTE ] Mmmm no. But it doesnt matter much. EDIT: Mmmm yes you are right and I am stupid! Besides, 87o will make a straight and loose less often than 54o. Doesnt matter much either. [ QUOTE ] 87o has super low eq. advantage over 54o preflop multi-way also. There's almost no difference. [/ QUOTE ] And K2o has an eq edge over Q7s. However I play the latter far more often. I dont care about the lack of eq edge that 87 has over 54. 87o is easier to play postflop because made pairs holds up more often. Mvoss has pointed this out already. I am sorry. But I think you are way of in your thinking when you say 54o plays easier than 87o. I dont think it matters much tho and I think preflop is fine in this particular hand.
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#19
06-18-2007, 09:13 AM
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Re: Unsuited connectors in the blinds.
Oink,
I think he was referring to the fact that there are as many ways to make a straight with 54 as there are with 87. I guess you are referring to the fact that when it's multiway, many times someone is going to have an ace, taking away one of your outs to a Wheel? JT-54 make the same number of straights. JT is the only one that always makes the Nut Straight when neither a J or T are on the board. That's the problem with T9-54. If the Board to your 76o Straight is: 89T, J5s and QJ beats you. I'm thinking of dropping those possibilites and raising my required Pot Odds to call. In fact, I know I am with the offsuit cards.
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