2/4, QTs SB defence

[henkeee]

I thought QTs were borderline here preflop, because of domination and lack of SD value. Anyway, on to the river that made me think about the hand afterwards..


Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB folds, Button calls.

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (7SB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4.5BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero 3-bets</font>, Button calls without hesitation.

River: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero?

I'm thinking c/c'ing might be best here:
*I'm now behind to e.g. AQ and spade draws.
*A missed hearts flush draw will fold if he didn't hit the A. A check might induce a bluff, but not likely when I have shown this much strength.
*He might value bet some worse hands like Q9 that got afraid of the straight possibility or AJ.

But of course, I'm losing value against a lot of hands that call too, KQ, QJ or some other strangely played holdings.
And I'm not sure we can pin point his range.

[TheWunderkind]

so we agree that it depends on the games we play&gt; i think the Hand OP posted is quite reasonable played from him&gt; if he would be a spewtard he would have capped preflop and the Turn &gt; at least he overplayed the River with the NUTflush and made a questionable Flopraise...this is not a spewtard...if i see a player spewing i call him all day long

believe me b/f isnt horrible&gt; at least not in the ongame 5/10 environment ...if this is an unknown theres no way im folding but if we have some kind of history like here and i have a strong image i really dont mind vs him&gt; OP siad he aggro but not dumb spewy or whatever and the example hand is not horrible played by him...

[henkeee]

[ QUOTE ]
From the read posted by OP I think he is quite the spewtard.

[/ QUOTE ]

What I had on him from before:
*Him 3b ATo vs MP on btn, betting flop/turn UI and checking behind.
*Him calling my UTG raise. Donking AQT F. C/c'ing X turn. C/r'ing and calling my 3b on 7 river w A7 and losing.
*Then the hand described in my first post and some other steal I don't remember.

He had something like 35 VPIP looking at it now, but not that many hands. Not a maniac anyway.

I missed a lot 3-4 tabling, but he seemed to be too aggressive postflop.

[yourface]

is this really such an easy turn 3bet? there are a [censored] ton of combos of JK and 8J that will take us to value village.

I'd expect a pair to raise the flop most of the time.

even if we say:
behind 8J*16, KJ*16
ahead AQ*12, 9T*9, Q9*9

we are ahead less than half the time. and I think that the Q hands should be discounted b/c of the flop action (and AQ gets capped preflop a lot).

of course if villain will semibluff a J or flush draw here we are looking a lot better.

[mvoss]

TheWunderkind, I play the same games you do, admittedly I play them horribly and am most likely a loser...

However I have to agree with Oink here, against aggressive villains you simply cannot make the pot big and then fold the river for one more bet. I know this is a generalization but sometimes generalising is ok.

If you regularly bloat the pot and then fold for one more bet against aggressive players, they will take advantage.

[TheWunderkind]

the point is no one raises the River without the goods especially @ ongame where no one would fold a T on the River and thats the reason why NO ONE besides known maniacs would raise that River with thrash&gt;as long if youre aware of your image i dont think its a big deal&gt; if like oink said that bluffs of that sort are common then if its an easy call...

the only reason id call is for metagame reasons otherwise , if there are good thinking aggros on the table then i want them to know that i call them down no matter what but then ill find a new table tough...otherwise i save 1 BB what all other would have lost


I dont know &gt; call is not horrible obv but please dont expect to make money with that call...

[mvoss]

[ QUOTE ]
the point is no one raises the River without the goods especially @ ongame where no one would fold a T on the River and thats the reason why NO ONE besides known maniacs would raise that River with thrash...

I dont know &gt; call is not horrible obv but please dont expect to make money with that call...

[/ QUOTE ]

I play onGame as well and these two quotes simply aren't true in my experience, and this is why we disagree.

[TheWunderkind]

we still speak about non manaical opponents?

[mvoss]

Yes, but we do speak about aggressive tricky opponents.

[TheWunderkind]

today i paid of some of those River raises and always lost &gt; raising this River has nothing to do with tricky where everybody is a sd monkey + you have a strong image &gt; why would a tryicky aggro Player raise this River with Q9 T9 or a lone Ace?