The one where I get a big stack allin against Rizen holding 44 - Page 2

Black Aces 518 · #11 03-31-2007, 01:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold.

I remember this hand and I was surprised that Rizen raised so much with aces on the button. You are not even getting set value to call. Also, you were the first limper.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, I was surprised too. I couldn't remember if I was first or second in. Probably should have waited to get the history.

Given that I was first in, does that change Soss, Betgo or Kramer's opinion of the play? What does anyone think of Rizen's open range here? What about his call range?

I agree that calling is no good here, I'm OOP and don't have the odds. Just thought this was a great chance to add to an already impressive stack (another 10%) without showdown. Looks like the risk outweighs the reward IYO. I just wanted to make sure to analyze the play outside of being shown AA.

betgo · #12 03-31-2007, 01:59 AM

In general, there is nothing wrong with the limpreraise here, but it is read dependent. I wouldn't try it against Rizen, because he doesn't raise here without a real hand.

gobboboy · #13 03-31-2007, 02:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Rizen is a rock, 10/9 on my PT.

This is a great play if limped behind with aces, but it looks like what it is, a small pp.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is this a good play with AA? If Rizen has a hand he can call a jam with here, you're probably doubling through him with AA anyway. If rizen has kings, why does LRR'ing add to your ability to get his stack?

locutus2002 · #14 03-31-2007, 03:06 AM

You have 30K (75XBB), Rizen has 20K (50XBB). There is 6K in the pot. When u move in u r risking 20K to win 6K. Rizen will be getting 1.6:1 ~3:2 and should be calling just about his entire range. Your hand plays terribly against the range of hands he could be holding (even though he is leaking information and telling you he is near the top of his range).

You are just donking chips here.

From a tournament standpoint you had a great position (CL at table) before the hand, and shouldn't be looking to get it all in with a marginal hand against a tight player.

Black Aces 518 · #15 03-31-2007, 03:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
In general, there is nothing wrong with the limpreraise here, but it is read dependent. I wouldn't try it against Rizen, because he doesn't raise here without a real hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rizen never raises in position after a gaggle of limpers? I know he is one of the best accumulators of chips out there, so how does he do it?

Black Aces 518 · #16 03-31-2007, 03:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You have 30K (75XBB), Rizen has 20K (50XBB). There is 6K in the pot. When u move in u r risking 20K to win 6K. Rizen will be getting 1.6:1 ~3:2 and should be calling just about his entire range. Your hand plays terribly against the range of hands he could be holding (even though he is leaking information and telling you he is near the top of his range).

You are just donking chips here.

From a tournament standpoint you had a great position (CL at table) before the hand, and shouldn't be looking to get it all in with a marginal hand against a tight player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, when you put it like THAT. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Yeah, I think the risk probably outweighed the reward. I wouldn't have done it without knowing who Rizen was, and perhaps misunderstanding his play/range. I haven't played with him before, and it seemed like he thought that was a great opp to accumulate free chips, so I tried to turn the tables. In retrospect, the detriment to my position when it backfires is larger than the benefit when it succeeds. Thanks for the responses.

RichC. · #17 03-31-2007, 03:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In general, there is nothing wrong with the limpreraise here, but it is read dependent. I wouldn't try it against Rizen, because he doesn't raise here without a real hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rizen never raises in position after a gaggle of limpers? I know he is one of the best accumulators of chips out there, so how does he do it?

[/ QUOTE ]

by having people donate their chips to him with 44 and a LRR?

Black Aces 518 · #18 03-31-2007, 03:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In general, there is nothing wrong with the limpreraise here, but it is read dependent. I wouldn't try it against Rizen, because he doesn't raise here without a real hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rizen never raises in position after a gaggle of limpers? I know he is one of the best accumulators of chips out there, so how does he do it?

[/ QUOTE ]

by having people donate their chips to him with 44 and a LRR?

[/ QUOTE ]

hahaha oh yeah

glad i could donate to the cause, met him in vegas and he's a super nice guy. lol.

Eagles · #19 03-31-2007, 03:52 AM

Your hand looks really weak here.

betgo · #20 03-31-2007, 07:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You have 30K (75XBB), Rizen has 20K (50XBB). There is 6K in the pot. When u move in u r risking 20K to win 6K. Rizen will be getting 1.6:1 ~3:2 and should be calling just about his entire range. Your hand plays terribly against the range of hands he could be holding (even though he is leaking information and telling you he is near the top of his range).

You are just donking chips here.

From a tournament standpoint you had a great position (CL at table) before the hand, and shouldn't be looking to get it all in with a marginal hand against a tight player.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think people are being somewhat results oriented. Since OP was the first limper, he could have a big pair. It is an easy call with AA for Rizen, but if he had a more marginal hand, it would be hard to call even with 1.6-1 pot odds.

Also, when you are called, you are frequently a small favorite against AK/AQ rather than a 4-1 dog, so you win percentage if called is not that bad.

OP sees a big raise at limpers on the button from a name player and figures he is likely making a play, and makes a resteal. Without knowing the player's reputations or having PT stats on him, the push may not be that bad.