1-2 at Commerce - Page 2

Ian J · #11 03-13-2007, 04:56 AM

The thing is he played really bad in this hand. I mean it's very slim that he has the best hand on the turn and trying to bluff someone off a flush in limit holdem is just ridiculous. If for some crazy reason he was value 4 betting and betting the river when checked to well then DB you got some work to do on your game [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. There is room for the 4 bet the turn and check the river play, this is just absolutely the wrong time for it. I wouldn't beat myself up for this fold, just play different next time.

xmrstyle · #12 03-13-2007, 06:05 AM

What if I 4 bet you there ? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Also, I woud call c/c river here vs Kevin everytime (ya everytime)

tribefan9 · #13 03-13-2007, 10:19 AM

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It was definitely Kevin J. from Chicago. He told a friend of mine about the hand. He had aces. The real question now is who played the hand the worst?

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the guy who folded the winner, by a mile

way to kill the guy's thread with results though

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I wasn't trying to kill the thread with results (I did not know if the OP even knew Kevin's hand). The responses showed that folding or calling are probably both fine, and it probably is not that interesting of a decision. I think there is more to think about on the hand from Kevin's perspective.

Kevin J · #14 03-13-2007, 12:20 PM

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The thing is he played really bad in this hand. I mean it's very slim that he has the best hand on the turn and trying to bluff someone off a flush in limit holdem is just ridiculous. If for some crazy reason he was value 4 betting and betting the river when checked to well then DB you got some work to do on your game [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. There is room for the 4 bet the turn and check the river play, this is just absolutely the wrong time for it. I wouldn't beat myself up for this fold, just play different next time.

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If you're me are you going to fold top set on the river if you just call the turn 3-bet? If not, what's so bad about the 4-bet? The only hand that can 5 bet is the nut flush and even then, it's not exactly a catastrophe as I still have outs. In addition, I make the extra bet when I do fill up. So I either show it down for the same 4 bets as you do (assuming you're not going to fold top set), or I make an extra bet. I admit I wasn't planning on there being any fold equity to the play, but as it was, limper said he mucked J9 for a straight, and Vince mucked a non-nut flush. I'll take it.

Hoi Polloi · #15 03-13-2007, 12:21 PM

For instance, does Kevin think OP will bluff 3-bet the flush card here?

Kevin J · #16 03-13-2007, 12:38 PM

Hey Vince -

Although I didn't think you'd play a set this way, I had to widen your hand range some since you were the bb. Flush was most likely, but I didn't think it had to be the nut flush which is what I thought it would've taken for you to 5 bet. The pot was big at that point and I really wanted to show down an unimproved top set on the river.

What I think is an interesting aspect to the hand (and what makes my 4 bet troublesome), is what I would've done if you called the 4 bet and then led the river? Now I put myself in a position where I have to make a big laydown, which I hate doing in pots this large.

Anyway, it was nice meeting you. You play goot! Hope ya had a good trip.

Kevin J · #17 03-13-2007, 12:49 PM

Now that the results are out, what do you think of Vince calling the turn and leading out on the river? There's really only two hands I can have in that spot that have him beat (suited king-high flush and (maybe) Qd,Jd). There are more hands that he beats (3 ways for AA, 3 for TT, and A,Kd). I thought about this later and would really have been in a tough spot if he bets the river. I prolly fold though.

Kevin J · #18 03-13-2007, 12:53 PM

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For instance, does Kevin think OP will bluff 3-bet the flush card here?

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This was also a consideration and from what I've seen of Vince's play, he's definitely good enough to. The real point is what are all the people who hate my 4 bet going to do (if they're me), when the board doesn't pair on the river? Fold? Or lose the 4th bet anyway by paying off?

Kevin J · #19 03-13-2007, 12:56 PM

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It is the Kevin from Chicago who takes lots of smoke breaks....who is tribefan?

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I figured out those smoke breaks cost me tons at Commerce. I gotta quit before going back there.

npknhldr · #20 03-13-2007, 01:08 PM

If he bet into you on river, wouldn't it look so much like a b/f line? then a bluff raise on river would be so sick...

btw, vnh! I love this free showdown play w/ a draw to the nuts. I think it only backfires (getting re-popped by the nuts) as often as it takes advantage of fold equity. The line is so much more interesting from the other perspective...