99 weird spot...4 handed - Page 2

Kevin8423 · #11 03-12-2007, 03:54 AM

A 600 raise allows us to call a push from shortstack and not get involved for 3000+ with the other stacks when we have 99. Shoving doesn't give us this option.

What advantage do we have from pushing? Not letting the two 3k stacks have the chance to resteal? Not worth possibly flipping and becoming a shortstack.

K䲰䮥n · #12 03-12-2007, 03:56 AM

Push is unexploitable.

Dr_Wonderful · #13 03-12-2007, 04:31 AM

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Push is unexploitable.

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I don't see the reason to push. yeah, you could be outplayed but most players aren't going to risk their tourny life with middle stacks when there is a small stack left. This is a low level tourny and small raise is almost as strong as a push without the huge risk of being hit by a big hand.

K䲰䮥n · #14 03-12-2007, 04:41 AM

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[ QUOTE ]
Push is unexploitable.

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I don't see the reason to push. yeah, you could be outplayed but most players aren't going to risk their tourny life with middle stacks when there is a small stack left. This is a low level tourny and small raise is almost as strong as a push without the huge risk of being hit by a big hand.

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Why is the risk of running into a big hand HUGE?

Pushing might or might not be the best way to play this but pushing is unexploitable. That means no matter what their calling range is this is a profitable push.

Dr_Wonderful · #15 03-12-2007, 04:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Why is the risk of running into a big hand HUGE?

Pushing might or might not be the best way to play this but pushing is unexploitable. That means no matter what their calling range is this is a profitable push.

[/ QUOTE ] I agree that pushing is profitable, I would never argue that in this situation, I just think that a more normal raise will yield more profitable results in the long run, because you will never get beat by a huge hand if you fold to reraise and you will still be the big stack after the hand. And, in my opinion, you're picking up the blinds like 80% of the time with a smaller raise here compared to 90% if you push but risking much much less. Also this is all dependent on what stake this is, I'm giving my opinion as if its a 16, because thats what I play.

fluorescenthippo · #16 03-12-2007, 01:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Why is the risk of running into a big hand HUGE?

Pushing might or might not be the best way to play this but pushing is unexploitable. That means no matter what their calling range is this is a profitable push.

[/ QUOTE ] I agree that pushing is profitable, I would never argue that in this situation, I just think that a more normal raise will yield more profitable results in the long run, because you will never get beat by a huge hand if you fold to reraise and you will still be the big stack after the hand. And, in my opinion, you're picking up the blinds like 80% of the time with a smaller raise here compared to 90% if you push but risking much much less. Also this is all dependent on what stake this is, I'm giving my opinion as if its a 16, because thats what I play.

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villian can have AJ+ or most pocket pairs. as shillx said we are priced in to call now. and in most sng situations especially on the bubble, if you have to call the reraise you should have pushed in the first place.

funny how you only mention that fact that he could have a huge hand and never 88 or AK.

oh and stakes dont matter

Kevin8423 · #17 03-12-2007, 01:46 PM

So are we basing this push off the fact that if we do get called by a 3k stack we still have about 2k chips left if we lose? If instead we were even with them or it would put us at under 10BB like 1k or something would we still be pushing preflop? Seems like too big a risk to take on the bubble when it won't often get you more than the blinds or a coin flip.

fluorescenthippo · #18 03-12-2007, 02:00 PM

no. we are basing it off having 99 in the CO risking only about 12bb. (we are most likely to be call by the shortstack so you cant really take the average of the stacks) you dont want to be played back at so push

Van Strummer · #19 03-12-2007, 02:03 PM

This can be compared pretty much directly to a situation with 300/600 blinds with you in the BB and the pusher in the SB. If we set it up like this you could use SNGPT or SNGwiz to see if you could call:

Blinds (600/300-50ante):
CO: 1570
Button: 3065
SB: 3415
BB 5450
SB allin, you have 99.

If you think he is repushing with 66+, AT+ A9s+ or more you have to call.

That being said I prefer makeing it 500 here and call smallstacks push and fold to the mid satcks pushes, if I do not think they are over aggressive.

Dr_Wonderful · #20 03-12-2007, 05:04 PM

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villian can have AJ+ or most pocket pairs. as shillx said we are priced in to call now. and in most sng situations especially on the bubble, if you have to call the reraise you should have pushed in the first place.

funny how you only mention that fact that he could have a huge hand and never 88 or AK.

oh and stakes dont matter

[/ QUOTE ] With the stack that hero has I don't think you want to be calling even if you know you're a 50/50. At least I wouldn't, I think that with the blinds this low I can outplay effectively and do not need a 50/50 even if the pot odds dictate I should take it. And how do stakes not matter? The lower the level the less likely someone is making a play at you with a lesser hand, lower stakes=timid players on the bubble.