Raising blind? (slightly long)

[GiantBuddha]

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How does being forced to call a higher amount benefit you? Unlike a blind raise, where you can limp along for the regular amount with greater pot odds and then have the chance to limp-reraise? Does that affect everyone between the blinds and the sleeper?

Am I mistaken on how sleeper straddles work?

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Yes. If you're UTG and someone posts a sleeper behind you, once you elect to enter the pot, whether for a raise or just a call of the big blind, the sleeper is off. Null and void. Once the action gets to him, that player may elect to call, fold or raise. If he raises, he doesn't get the option to reraise if everyone just calls. If everyone folds to the sleeper, then it just acts the same as a straddle, where it's a third live blind. He can't look at his cards and decide whether this is a good idea or not.

Sleepers are generally not allowed on the button. It may be +EV to straddle or sleep on the button, I'm not sure. But I think allowing a sleeper on the button would be pretty bad for the game.

As far as putting you off your game, yes, you're right. If you're playing on semi-scared money, raising the stakes could give the other player a psychological advantage. This is why Andy Biel wanted to play so big with the Vegas pros. On the other hand, you still only have to pay the small and big blinds, so you can afford to play very tight and punish the sleepers and straddles for putting more dead money in the pot. The pots you play with be larger, and you're essentially playing with shorter stacks.

[Lottery Larry]

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Am I mistaken on how sleeper straddles work?

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Yes. If you're UTG and someone posts a sleeper behind you, once you elect to enter the pot, whether for a raise or just a call of the big blind, the sleeper is off. Null and void. Once the action gets to him, that player may elect to call, fold or raise. If he raises, he doesn't get the option to reraise if everyone just calls.

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I THOUGHT that didn't make sense. So, a sleeper straddle is a blind straddle that you can put out but remove if someone calls the REGULAR amount in front- they don't have to call the raised amount, like you would in a kill pot?

If anyone DOES call (or raise), the sleeper is automatically voided and must be removed?

If someone in front of the sleeper raises, what does the early raiser have to raise to... or what CAN they raise to, in a limit game?

I still don't get the logic behind allowing someone to remove a blind raise in a limit game, if everyone does NOT fold to the sleeper straddle. (assuming my understanding is now fully corrected, that is)
I do see how the effect in an NL game isn't huge enough that allowing the sleeper straddle to be removed is a big deal, since you're mainly playing for stacks, not blinds.

Can you explain further?

[GiantBuddha]

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So, a sleeper straddle is a blind straddle that you can put out but remove if someone calls the REGULAR amount in front- they don't have to call the raised amount, like you would in a kill pot?

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Correct.

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If anyone DOES call (or raise), the sleeper is automatically voided and must be removed?

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Correct. Once the action reaches the player whos sleeper came off, he may call, fold, or make any legal raise.

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If someone in front of the sleeper raises, what does the early raiser have to raise to... or what CAN they raise to, in a limit game?

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If someone in front of the sleeper enters the pot, it's as if the sleeper was never posted. That player may make a regular raise in limit, or any legal raise in pot or no limit. They may also call for the regular amount (not the amount of the sleeper).

If someone was allowed to do what you thought a sleeper was, I wouldn't play in that game either. The reason a regular sleeper (or a straddle for that matter) is allowed, and not every casino or club allows them, is basically to make the players who want to gamble it up happy. These are not winning players (usually) and they think putting extra dead money in the pot is fun. God bless them.

[Lottery Larry]

Thanks for the additional info. However:

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If someone was allowed to do what you thought a sleeper was, I wouldn't play in that game either. The reason a regular sleeper (or a straddle for that matter) is allowed, and not every casino or club allows them, is basically to make the players who want to gamble it up happy. These are not winning players (usually) and they think putting extra dead money in the pot is fun. God bless them.

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There's a BIG difference between a straddle and a sleeper straddle. I'm thinking that a late-position sleeper can have a lot of advantages and isn't hugely -EV in a limit game.

If it causes a lot of people to fold, that normally wouldn't in a tight limit game, you've thinned the field out without saying anything about your hand. If anyone calls in front, you can fold with NO cost, or raise or whatever- since the sleeper doesn't count if someone calls, then it's not really in play for a lot of hands.

Therefore, it can only be -EV if everyone folds to you... and then you're playing a short-handed game, where your hand values go up anyway. So, it may not be hugely negative if you're only playing against 3-4 other players and two of them are in the blinds, having to call a raise out of position.

Even in an NL game, if you can get away from your hand, an extra blind or two in the pot isn't a killer if you're deep stacked.