Razz Hand- Was I correct to fold third here?

[HOWMANY]

You're basically always going to see 5th as long as it's 1 bet.

A general rule of thumb I just made up is don't fold 3rd when you're drawing to the nuts. Your cards may be a little dead, but so are theirs.

[*TT*]

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This is why I asked about this hand. I was very conflicted when I made the fold. I folded as it was 2 bets back to me and I felt pretty sure that seat five was going to cap. Which they did do. I also believed that because of this action that more of my outs were likely dead as they way the action was going. It is unusual to see this kind of action on 3rd street at this level, without it being to monsters going up against each other. I also believed that I was behind and would be getting sandwiched between two better hands. So I thought the correct decision was to get out of the way and wait for a better spot.

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Think of it this way - if you catch good on 4th, can you think of a better spot? Of course its results oriented thinking, but you would have caught the 7 giving you the best hand on 4th street.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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You know better than this TT, as you admit above about results etc. It's a bad fold no matter what card comes next.

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Chill, I am explaining why he must call even if he thinks one of his opponents holds a better starting hand or even a monster hand like A23. 4th street is the great equalizer, I explained that if he catches good at all he is way ahead and since he holds the 4 and the 5 it will be hard for his opponents to draw as clean. Sometimes the theory doesn't sink in without real world example when a player is inexperienced - in this case we knew the results of the next street. Remember unlike the hold'em forums the stud forum is a catch all, appealing to players of all walks and experience. In this case the OP is still wet behind the ears.

Mind you his fold isn't as horrible as everyone here is claiming, he at best probably has 1/3 equity unless one of the two opponents is laggy. But at the same time no way am I folding, because the pot is too large and I play much better on 4th street and beyond.

PS to OP: even if you catch bad on 4th street you have the odds to call in lots (not all) situations.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[greyhawke54]

Thank you for the comments. Also another factor in my decision was that I had not been at this table very long. This was my 15th hand or so. I thought that as I did not have great reads on everyone that it was better to err on the side of caution. I had seen seat 5 show down a few hands and they had been decent, and I had not seen them doing anything overtly stupid. As far as the others went I had less of an idication on them. For the record this was a very very tough fold for me to make. I also ran the hand on 2 dimes what I found there suprised me a little. Even giving my opp premium hands I was not as big a dog as I figured even with the dead cards.

[Andy B]

I can't imagine folding third here.

[betgo]

Your 3 opponents probably don't all have 3 wheel cards. Your cards may be slightly less live than your average opponent. One of your 4s is out, so it isn't terrible. All reasonable hands run real close in win percentage on 3rd street. This is low stakes, so someone may have a much weaker hand. You would need a much worse situation with dead crds and action to consider folding 3 wheel cards on 3rd street.

[blee24]

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Mind you his fold isn't as horrible as everyone here is claiming, he at best probably has 1/3 equity unless one of the two opponents is laggy. But at the same time no way am I folding, because the pot is too large and I play much better on 4th street and beyond.

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How do you figure 1/3 equity? If OP called, there would be 4 people in the hand. If they all have 3 wheel cards, worst case (they all have 2's and 3's in the hole) he has like 9% equity (twodimes ), best case 1/4 (if everyone has the same hand). If someone has a 6 or 7 in the hole that helps though. Are you assuming the three callers don't have wheel draws? I'm not disagreeing, just wondering what range you are putting the three villians that saw 4th on.

Actually, re-reading your post, I think you meant 1/4 because you mentioned, "unless one of the two oppoenents is laggy", but there would have been 3 opponents if OP had called.

[Andy B]

It's pretty unlikely that everyone has a three-card bike. The other guys could have Sixes, even Sevens. 1/3 equity strikes me as a reasonable estimate.

[electrical]

OP's thinking, that he didn't want to play a capped street, is not uncommon thinking, and must be rooted-out mercilessly. It is based in a real-world valuation of money "That's a lot of money! I skeered!" rather than a game-time evaluation of stakes "I guess I'm playing a strong hand for more money here. Good time to do it."

Play on. Fold when you're beat or when the pot isn't worth fighting over, not when you have great cards and stand to rake a huge pot.

[blee24]

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It's pretty unlikely that everyone has a three-card bike. The other guys could have Sixes, even Sevens. 1/3 equity strikes me as a reasonable estimate.

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I would have thought so too, but using propokertools simulator, if the other 3 opponents are all on 3 card 8's or better, we have 28.5% equity. If they are on 3 card 7's or better, we're at 1/4. It seems to not be doing enough trials for precise results, but I assume these numbers are in the ballpark.

3 card 7s

3 card 8s

[greyhawke54]

Here is the hand with the hole cards exposed and the results. I was correct about seat 5. Seat 1 is a bit nuts here. Seat 3 most likely had something decent, this is based more on observations of their play later in the game though.

I however was not a skeered here. I think that I overvalued the cards that were dead to my hand in this particular case. I thougt that I was making a very tough but correct laydown, but was still unsure after a did it. In the past I have undervalued my dead cards, to my detriment. Thanks again for the comments, this was a very tough decision for me and I welcome the feedback.

Razz ($0.50/$1.00), Ante $0.05 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.70 SB)

Vil 1: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 2: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises___calls___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___folds
Vil 5: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises___raises
Seat 7: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (14.20 SB)

Vil 1: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Vil 5: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (8.60 BB)

Vil 1: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Vil 5: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

6th Street - (10.60 BB)

Vil 1: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Vil 5: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

River - (12.60 BB)

Vil 1: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Vil 5: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls

Total pot: (14.60 BB)

Results (in white):<font color="white">

Total pot $14.60 | Rake $0.50

Vil 1: [6c 7d 2h Jh Qs 8h Th] (Lo: T,8,7,6,2)

Vil 5: [2d As 4c 7c 2s 9s 4d] (Lo: 9,7,4,2,A)

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