So... I'm not reraising PF anymore. Is that wrong? - Page 2

CardSharpCook · #11 02-07-2007, 08:08 AM

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Surely your worst line here is calling with AA on the button not reraising here is criminal deepstack or not

[/ QUOTE ]

explain.

NoahSD · #12 02-07-2007, 08:08 AM

You left out some pretty critical information, like your position, reads, and specific stack size (40+ BB is a really big range, and the 3-bet dynamic is way different at 40, 60, 100, 150, 200 BBs, etc.).

But, it doesn't really matter much. These are all pretty much always a 3-bet. You should be 3-betting in these spots with a wide enough range that 3-betting the QQ and AA is worth a ton of value, and 3-betting with AJo there is nice because he folds so often, and when he doesn't he often folds to a c-bet--plus occasionally you hit something showdownable.

Mclane665 · #13 02-07-2007, 08:14 AM

You say only big hands are calling you but thats not strictly true after all your calling in #2 with AJ. I very rarely slow play my big hands deep stack or not. I want to get HU with someone in position if possible. Can you really see a str8 when you make set of Qs do you auto fold to a river flush card when you have an over pair? What about letting some idiot in with 96o and them hitting 2 pair to your overpair. Raising preflop defines your hand helps define the ops hands and lets you take control of the pot and make valuable Cbets. If you limp in with alot of others with QQ did the BB raise all in because he didnt want to play KK oop or because he thought he could steal all the dead money after no one showed any strength?

Im not saying your plays are incorrect Im just trying to highlight some of the many dangers that are inherent within it.

Robbie01 · #14 02-07-2007, 08:14 AM

Card i know your far more experienced than me but you have AA not reraising for value surely is a bad idea just my opinion

beenben · #15 02-07-2007, 08:19 AM

w/o reading other replies...

Daniel Negraneu claims he is doing this all the time now. He can outplay people post-flop and he does not want to give away information about his hand. In a recent blog post he said he only raised one time in a tournament pre-flop and that was with QQ in late position when he needed to steal the blinds.

So it can work if you play post-flop and help conceal your hands. However, while you do want action on these hands, you're most likely ahead pre-flop and you may lose your advantage post-flop. You want to charge people to try to catchup to you and to try to take it down pre-flop.

rockin · #16 02-07-2007, 08:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
w/o reading other replies...

Daniel Negraneu claims he is doing this all the time now. He can outplay people post-flop and he does not want to give away information about his hand. In a recent blog post he said he only raised one time in a tournament pre-flop and that was with QQ in late position when he needed to steal the blinds.

So it can work if you play post-flop and help conceal your hands. However, while you do want action on these hands, you're most likely ahead pre-flop and you may lose your advantage post-flop. You want to charge people to try to catchup to you and to try to take it down pre-flop.

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he is also playing a lot deeper than 40bb's. CSC is not. 40bb's is not very deep stacked poker.

omaha · #17 02-07-2007, 09:02 AM

i) you don't think it is more "scared poker" to try to take it down PF? The whole idea is that I can outplay these idiots postflop, so why not let them find half a hand and pay me off. If I need to fold it, so what?

I believe that playing scared poker is not putting the $ in the middle when you either i) know you have the best of it, or ii ) highly likely you have the best of it.

i) I don't beleive I am giving them "great odds to draw out on me". I'm not defining my hand pf, and I'm hoping to get in a situation where their hands are much more visible to my eyes than mine is to theirs while still having the best starting hand when the flop hits the felt.

Perhaps an example is in order, from a night or two ago. BB had been folding to my minraises or 3bb raises from the sb.

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t1000/t2000
(Ante: t100)
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
doctorpaul1: t37401
BB: t30099

Pre-flop: (2 players) doctorpaul1 is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
doctorpaul1 raises to t4000, BB calls t2000 (pot was t6200).

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (t8200, 2 players)
BB checks, doctorpaul1 bets t4000, BB calls t4000 (pot was t12200).

Turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (t16200, 2 players)
BB checks, doctorpaul1 bets t6000, BB raises to t12000, doctorpaul1 raises to t18000, BB raises all-in t21999, doctorpaul1 calls t3999 (pot was t56199).

River: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (t60198, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: t60198)

Results:
Final pot: t60198
BB showed As Ah

BB should have won this pot pf, and he would have been upset, at just winning my (obvious) steal attempt.

On the flop, i have a piece, and bet to find out where i am. I would have dropped to a raise, which villain should have done.

ON turn, BINGO! i have a full, and unless he has a 4, or a 3, he is pretty much toast. Yes, he has a few outs, but he puts his entire stack in jeopardy, when he is drawing just about dead!

ii) The whole idea is that I can achieve greater "pwnage" by allowing them to "get there" when I know that "there" is no good.

If you give someone odds to draw out on you, two things can usually happen.
i) they get there, and punish you.
ii) You bet, they fold, and you win the exact same amount of money that you would have won earlier.

In other words, it is only when you have a monster, and they then pick up a second nut monster that you wind up winning MORE than you would have earlier.

iv) Why would you think that I would only be winning small pots and losing large ones? I'm pretty sure it is the other way around -> I'm able to get away from a hand after minimal action, and I'm getting paid off big if we both make a hand.

Well, because if they dont make a hand, you win the same that you would have, had you taken the pot down earlier. You are only getting paid off if you have a hand, AND villain has a better hand, AND decides to pay you off. In reality, if you give someone odds to draw out on you, then dont complain when they draw out on you. If you have AA, and someone even hits bottom pair, they have a large number of outs to crush your monster!

Hand 1, why? (please remember, i dont know much about deepstack, so, yes you may play for set value)

Well, you are oop with the fourth best hand, which is almost certainly the best hand at the table. THe raiser might just be raising a bunch of limpers to take the hand HU with positon. When the flop comes with an a or a k, and four players have seen the flop, how do you like your ladies? If you take it HU, then that a or k looks a lot less threatenign.

Hand 2, as i said, ill sit on the fence with that one.

Hand 3, you are seriously asking why you raise it? ARE YOU KIDDING? You have the pf monster of all monsters, are prolly 5-1 favourite over almost all hands, You can get your $ in the middle either now, or when your opponent may have outdrawn you

Perhaps another example or two from the other night is in order

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t25/t50
8 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t3100
UTG+1: t5130
doctorpaul1: t3875
MP2: t810
CO: t1315
Button: t260
SB: t2305
BB: t3145

Pre-flop: (8 players) doctorpaul1 is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
2 folds, doctorpaul1 raises to t200, MP2 raises all-in t810, CO folds, Button calls all-in t260, 2 folds, doctorpaul1 calls t610 (pot was t1345).

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (t1510, 1 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: t855, Sidepot 1: t655)

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (t1510, 1 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: t855, Sidepot 1: t655)

River: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (t1510, 1 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: t855, Sidepot 1: t655)

Results:
Final pot: t1510
doctorpaul1 showed Ac Ah
MP2 showed Qc Tc

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t100/t200
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t6158
UTG+1: t1520
MP1: t5595
MP2: t8750
MP3: t10085
CO: t15065
Button: t4800
SB: t9162
doctorpaul1: t2040

Pre-flop: (9 players) doctorpaul1 is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
5 folds, CO raises to t800, 2 folds, doctorpaul1 raises to t1400, CO raises to t7600, doctorpaul1 calls all-in t640.
Uncalled bets: t5560 returned to CO.

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t4180, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: t4180)

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (t4180, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: t4180)

River: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (t4180, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: t4180)

Results:
Final pot: t4180
VIllain had 99 for a set of nines

Why raise pf with AA?

Because i kinda like getting as much $ in the centre when I am 100% certain that i have the best of it.

betgo · #18 02-07-2007, 10:03 AM

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I'd definately reraise that QQ with so many potential players coming in. The other 2 are fine.

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I think you need to reraise the QQ hand, rahter than play it 6-way. The other hands are OK in isolation.

The AJ hand, you have a good hand and probably need to fold to a 4-bet, so calling is OK. With AA HU, it is also OK to call, particularly if the raiser is aggressive and probably doesn't have much, but will play strongly postflop. Also, you are hoping for the blinds to squeeze.

If the play is very loose, I reraise AK, QQ+ and sometimes slightly weaker hands and expect to build a big pot.

If the play is tight and reraises often take the pot or take it with cbets, then I reraise suited gappers or whatever based partly on the situation. I also usually reraise my big hands, so it is hard to tell which is which.

Sometimes flat calling with big pairs is fine, but you want to do it HU. With multiway action, generally reraise.

APXG · #19 02-07-2007, 11:15 AM

CSC, I agree with your posts completely and disagree basically with everyone who is saying "you have QQ - auto 3bet, WTF WTF WTF."

Your question depends on your feel for both the preflop and postflop ranges of the opponents you are doing this against. If they are predictable enough, there's no need to 3bet. I rarely find proper spots for stuff like this in online tourneys, but when you are playing live and are sitting at a table full of weak-tight old men who don't understand the concept of mixing up their play, I wouldn't reraise with deepstacks preflop, with any hand, except maybe to get a good player to fold preflop to isolate the weak-tight guys.

This style is only possible if there is not enough bluffing. The concept of calling PF with AA or QQ rests on the fact that you easily release the hand to resistance deepstacked. If you're being bluffed by aggro opponents, you'll have a much tougher time not folding the best hand and / or calling value bets when behind. I'm sure you understand this, given the nature of your post - I don't think anyone else does.

Guys, please read the OP and posts following instead of wasting your time posting basic logic. There's a lot to learn. Stop spamming actually advanced thoughts with level 1 cocnepts such "its scared poker to not get all your money in the middle when you have the best hand". You are overvaluing your ability to read people preflop - their ranges are much narrower postflop, and thus better decisions can be made, as CSC pointed out a bazillion times.

Pudge714 · #20 02-07-2007, 11:32 AM

beenben,
DN plays much better postflop and plays in much deeper tournaments.
As well it probably makes more sense for him to three bet lighter than call tighter.

Omaha,
Those hands you poster are horrible examples because you are much shorter and we assume that you can play decently postflop and that min3-bet with AA is so bad.

CSC,
1. Reraise
2. Sometimes call, sometimes fold, sometimes 3-bet
3. Sometimes call, sometimes 3-bet.