Question to libertarians: why is theft wrong?

[DougShrapnel]

Theft is "wrong" because people who stole did not survive long enough to procreate. Theft is wrong becuase it tends to decrease ones chance of survival. We do make exceptions for cases where theft is OK.

[Al68]

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Marx did not believe that individuals have ownership or property rights to the wealth created by their labor.

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Uh lol? Surely the main thrust of Marxism was that people were being derpived of/alienated from the results of their labour by the owners of capital.

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Yes it was. But his solution was to deprive individuals of their ownership rights of the results of their labor so they wouldn't be free to sell it to "capitalists".
He thought the exploitation of workers justified prohibiting people from selling their labor as a "commodity".

Marx believed that the property rights to an individual's labor should be owned "collectively".

I'm saying that my labor is a commodity (because it has value), and I own it. Which means I have the right to decide if, when, why, and who to sell it to.
And third parties (like government or the rest of society) do not have ownership rights to my labor, so they do not have the right to decide if, when, why, or who I sell it to.

[xorbie]

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When you steal you are acting out the following principle/idea:

*I* have a right to property and *you* do not have a right to property. This is what we cann anti-social behaviour. Meaning someone cannot function in a social environment. Why? Because this person is breaking down human interaction to the following: physical power. He demands that human interaction should be based violence: on killing and getting killed.

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I didn't realize it was so easy. Big Locke fan? First of all, stealing isn't a negation of your right to any property. It's at most a negation of your right to a particular piece of property. More likely it's just an affirmation of the fact that someone desires something you have enough to want to risk stealing it.

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The concept of property, both of yourself and of others is something we embrace naturally (it's in our genes).

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Could you, uh, point out the gene?

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Only through corruption of the mind can one have categories of thought where theft and extortion should be institutionalized between man to the point where it thought to be universally wrong for certain people to steal and universally right for others to steal. And the difference between the two lies in the ones who hold the monopoly of violence; meaning: there is just about the largest difference in power imaginable. The breeding of this idea comes directly from childhood, where the child is completely dependent on the parents, who recognize this power subconsciously and who abuse it without a seconds' thought.

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How does a government have a monopoly on violence?

[Darryl_P]

Suppose theft is ok in some cases like, say, when a government wants to take money from the rich to make health care available to the poor in times of need.

Now suppose I'm a poor person who needs an expensive chemotherapy treatment that's not covered under medicaid. I have been a moorobot fan for many years and have thoroughly bought in to his philosophy, so naturally I'd be outraged that I can't get my expensive treatment from funds stolen from rich people by the government.

Armed with this enlightened sense of righteousness, I then proceed to the nearest weapons store, use the last scrapings from my piggy bank to buy a handgun, and rob the first rich person I find.

Is that ok? Wouldn't life be a bit chaotic if this type of thing happened with regularity?

So the short answer: stealing has to be wrong for everyone, because if it's right for some, the others will feel justified in it also, and chaos will ensue.

[goodsamaritan]

There is no objective right and wrong. The ACers will bloviate all day about theft being wrong, but it's nothing more than their personal preference.

[goodsamaritan]

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So the short answer: stealing has to be wrong for everyone, because if it's right for some, the others will feel justified in it also, and chaos will ensue.

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First of all, chaos would not necesssarily ensue because even if everyone thought that it was okay for them to steal, everyone would still take precautions against theft and threaten serious negative consequences against anyone who tried to steal from them. There are a lot of people today who have nothing against stealing, but refrain from it because of possible negative consequences.

But even if I were to grant you for the sake of argument that chaos would ensue, that would not mean anything unless you could also prove that chaos is wrong.

[bills217]

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That is all.

Alternative title: what is wrong with theft?

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Joke thread?

P.S. As I said to NT! in the health care thread, if you don't claim your possessions, I will gladly relieve you of them. PM me to set up an arrangement.

[Vagos]

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That is all.

Alternative title: what is wrong with theft?

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Joke thread?


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I agree, wtf is up with this thread? I'd almost rather we go back to "What if Bill Gates buys up all the forests and burns them to the ground?"

[valenzuela]

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There is no objective right and wrong. The ACers will bloviate all day about theft being wrong, but it's nothing more than their personal preference.

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And we also think that everyone should have that personal preference.

[Darryl_P]

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But even if I were to grant you for the sake of argument that chaos would ensue, that would not mean anything unless you could also prove that chaos is wrong.

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You got me there. I can't prove it. I just assume most people don't like chaos, and so it's most likely a random society would consider it wrong, but in the end that's just my opinion.

If moorobot were to come out and say chaos is ok, I think I'd probably grant him that stealing is ok too.