Suspected to use a bot. How to react ?

[Voj]

Well for the matter I haven't done anything except of browsing that damn site. I'm a poker player not some kind of mad informatical genious. Wouldn't even know how to make it work properly I believe.

[RayBornert]

[ QUOTE ]
I was accused of colluding at Sun Poker...it really made me upset. I had just signed up for the account to take advantage of a bonus, and about 1 hour into playing some guy tells me he is sending an e-mail because I'm colluding with player X...it was like three handed hold em. Anyways, I e-mailed them saying how pissed I was for being accused of it by this clown with no evidence and they sorted it all out. If you haven't done anything wrong just explain it to them and you'll be fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

pro botters sometimes refer to "green-shirt" rules
or "green-shirts-on-friday" rules (gsof) which has to
do with any accusatory powers reserved by the site.

in the ridiculous scenario a site adds wording to the
t&c that forbids us to wear green shirts on fridays
while playing holdem on their site.

(more ridiculous examples discuss being forbidden to
ever wear a green shirt regardless of what you're doing)

this example seems stupid at first glance because nobody
cares about green shirts because green shirts dont have any
stretegic significance - but that's why they serve the
point because they emphasize the policeability issue as well
as the false positive issue. those of you that want strong
real world police measures need to take a moment and think
about what that implies in terms of your privacy. my view
is that individual freedom and privacy trumps most
everything including the need to secure the rules of live
holdem on the internet (i.e. sorry guys but the live game
has to take a back seat here)

the other way to view this issue is to see it as a war
between those who are very comfortable in a police state
and those that are not. these opposing views are usually
intolerant of the other view to the point of violence and
war (from the historical record).

i have to constantly remind myself that those of you that
are in favor of finding a way to effectively police the
live rules in an online game are not bad people; you're
probably nice honest hardworking guys and we'd probably
get along just fine on different turf. i get alarmed though
when i listen to some of the solutions you guys propose in
the name of the "holy-mother-live-game" (keep in mind i'm
not a bad guy either - i love the live game a great deal).
but i just dont want to help you guys try and police it any
more. it's a losing battle because the inherent structure
of the internet will not allow it. i did more in two years
for that cause than most of you will do your entire lives.

i guess each of you have a divine right to at least try and
do something (i certainly felt this way at one time). keep
in mind that trackers, botters, teamers are an order of
magnitude more sophisticated then when i was chasing them.

ray bornert

[Sniper]

You got what you deserved... you accessed a Bot site without protection...

Next time use a Condom!

Seriously, it had been noted before, that even simply visiting Ray's site was being tracked by the poker sites.

A word of warning to the curious!!!

[5thStreetHog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They must have picked up the winholdem site from your surfing history...

[/ QUOTE ]
I hope they wouldn't suspect bot use just from browsing the site as I'm sure the last few days many people that detest bots have browsed the site after seeing the Party Bot thread, me being one of them.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes,Ray`s media blitz here the last week or so has surely helped get a few more clicks on his deplorable site.Maybe this will help balance his relentless quasi spamming techniques here.Cheers to Stars,although my sympathy for the inconvenience of the OP.

[Phil153]

Ray,

why don't you stop obscuring the issue. You cheat and steal money off people. You are a common thief and a piece of [censored].

No amount of site bashing will obscure this simple fact.

[MicroBob]

If Ray really wanted to win over some of the people here I would think that making at least a little bit of sense would be the preferred strategy.

[RayBornert]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They must have picked up the winholdem site from your surfing history...

[/ QUOTE ]
I hope they wouldn't suspect bot use just from browsing the site as I'm sure the last few days many people that detest bots have browsed the site after seeing the Party Bot thread, me being one of them.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes,Ray`s media blitz here the last week or so has surely helped get a few more clicks on his deplorable site.Maybe this will help balance his relentless quasi spamming techniques here.Cheers to Stars,although my sympathy for the inconvenience of the OP.

[/ QUOTE ]

actually my entire motive for posting here in the first
place was the pokerbot world championship -
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...Number=7986882
what i'd really like to do is arrange games between strong
human players and strong botters just because that seems
interesting; but when i post here everyone usually wants to
immediately have a discussion with me about the ethics of
tracking, botting, teaming.

and all i really want to do is find the players who'd be
willing to play some holdem with pro botters. ive been
wanting to do this for 2 years now but the obstacles are
that the human players want to hold the game at an online
site that doesn't allow bots in their t&c.

the botters want to hold the event on a ppro server because
they trust it and know they wont get persecuted or banned
or other; the human players always then claim that it's
just a scam to get them to a site so they can be cheated.

i really dont want to talk about the ethics of tracking,
botting, teaming. i've been doing that for 3 years now,
first on rgp and here and on my site. it's old news to
me.

even if an online site agreed to host some kind of exhibit
match or sng right now there'd be no way to prove how or
what each entrant was; a human player could say he's just
playing as self but nobody could prove it - he might have
an analysis tool or a tracking tool or a bot and we'd never
know it - we'd just have to trust him; a botter could
be claiming to run a bot but nobody knows for sure if he
ever stepped in to override the bots decision.

so the only way this can really work is to get everyone
that is interested in the same room on a boat inside
international waters and play a live game using a digital
platform.

that's what i really want to talk about.

any body here interested in playing as self against pro
bots for real money entry fees?

is there anybody here that would be willing to play as
self on the ppro platform so the botters dont have to
worry about account closure or getting outted?

ray bornert

[gone.flying]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They must have picked up the winholdem site from your surfing history...

[/ QUOTE ]
I hope they wouldn't suspect bot use just from browsing the site as I'm sure the last few days many people that detest bots have browsed the site after seeing the Party Bot thread, me being one of them.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes,Ray`s media blitz here the last week or so has surely helped get a few more clicks on his deplorable site.Maybe this will help balance his relentless quasi spamming techniques here.Cheers to Stars,although my sympathy for the inconvenience of the OP.

[/ QUOTE ]

actually my entire motive for posting here in the first
place was the pokerbot world championship -
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...Number=7986882
what i'd really like to do is arrange games between strong
human players and strong botters just because that seems
interesting; but when i post here everyone usually wants to
immediately have a discussion with me about the ethics of
tracking, botting, teaming.

and all i really want to do is find the players who'd be
willing to play some holdem with pro botters. ive been
wanting to do this for 2 years now but the obstacles are
that the human players want to hold the game at an online
site that doesn't allow bots in their t&c.

the botters want to hold the event on a ppro server because
they trust it and know they wont get persecuted or banned
or other; the human players always then claim that it's
just a scam to get them to a site so they can be cheated.

i really dont want to talk about the ethics of tracking,
botting, teaming. i've been doing that for 3 years now,
first on rgp and here and on my site. it's old news to
me.

even if an online site agreed to host some kind of exhibit
match or sng right now there'd be no way to prove how or
what each entrant was; a human player could say he's just
playing as self but nobody could prove it - he might have
an analysis tool or a tracking tool or a bot and we'd never
know it - we'd just have to trust him; a botter could
be claiming to run a bot but nobody knows for sure if he
ever stepped in to override the bots decision.

so the only way this can really work is to get everyone
that is interested in the same room on a boat inside
international waters and play a live game using a digital
platform.

that's what i really want to talk about.

any body here interested in playing as self against pro
bots for real money entry fees?

is there anybody here that would be willing to play as
self on the ppro platform so the botters dont have to
worry about account closure or getting outted?

ray bornert

[/ QUOTE ]

Ray, you've done everything but go down on your knees and 'beg'

If you're that desperate, I'd be more than happy to play in your tourney - of course you'll cover the entry fees and a reasonable per diem, so just send info, plane tix, etc. Your end? 50/50 of anything the bots will 'allow' me to make seems more than fair.

Alternatively, I'd be more than happy to play at any site of your choice - we'll start with an empty account, you fund it, I'll play games/tables of your choice, same 50/50 split.

One caveat...no microlimits. I'm going to invest my precious time - you would need to pony up better than 25 buy-ins at 100nl.

[RayBornert]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They must have picked up the winholdem site from your surfing history...

[/ QUOTE ]
I hope they wouldn't suspect bot use just from browsing the site as I'm sure the last few days many people that detest bots have browsed the site after seeing the Party Bot thread, me being one of them.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes,Ray`s media blitz here the last week or so has surely helped get a few more clicks on his deplorable site.Maybe this will help balance his relentless quasi spamming techniques here.Cheers to Stars,although my sympathy for the inconvenience of the OP.

[/ QUOTE ]

actually my entire motive for posting here in the first
place was the pokerbot world championship -
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...Number=7986882
what i'd really like to do is arrange games between strong
human players and strong botters just because that seems
interesting; but when i post here everyone usually wants to
immediately have a discussion with me about the ethics of
tracking, botting, teaming.

and all i really want to do is find the players who'd be
willing to play some holdem with pro botters. ive been
wanting to do this for 2 years now but the obstacles are
that the human players want to hold the game at an online
site that doesn't allow bots in their t&c.

the botters want to hold the event on a ppro server because
they trust it and know they wont get persecuted or banned
or other; the human players always then claim that it's
just a scam to get them to a site so they can be cheated.

i really dont want to talk about the ethics of tracking,
botting, teaming. i've been doing that for 3 years now,
first on rgp and here and on my site. it's old news to
me.

even if an online site agreed to host some kind of exhibit
match or sng right now there'd be no way to prove how or
what each entrant was; a human player could say he's just
playing as self but nobody could prove it - he might have
an analysis tool or a tracking tool or a bot and we'd never
know it - we'd just have to trust him; a botter could
be claiming to run a bot but nobody knows for sure if he
ever stepped in to override the bots decision.

so the only way this can really work is to get everyone
that is interested in the same room on a boat inside
international waters and play a live game using a digital
platform.

that's what i really want to talk about.

any body here interested in playing as self against pro
bots for real money entry fees?

is there anybody here that would be willing to play as
self on the ppro platform so the botters dont have to
worry about account closure or getting outted?

ray bornert

[/ QUOTE ]

Ray, you've done everything but go down on your knees and 'beg'

If you're that desperate, I'd be more than happy to play in your tourney - of course you'll cover the entry fees and a reasonable per diem, so just send info, plane tix, etc. Your end? 50/50 of anything the bots will 'allow' me to make seems more than fair.

Alternatively, I'd be more than happy to play at any site of your choice - we'll start with an empty account, you fund it, I'll play games/tables of your choice, same 50/50 split.

One caveat...no microlimits. I'm going to invest my precious time - you would need to pony up better than 25 buy-ins at 100nl.

[/ QUOTE ]

gone,

well at least you're bold and honest about what you want.
i can respect that.

if you decide to attend the pbwc:
travel/lodging will be entirely at your expense
(just like any other live event)
entry fees will be entirely at your expense
(just like any other live event)
your winnings would be yours and yours alone
(just like any other live event)

the pbwc does not have any special rights to exist above
and beyond the rights of any other live tournament. if the
pbwc is going to have any respect then it must be willing
to deal with the realities of live holdem regardless.

i think i can convince some botters to meet you online but
you're gonna have to show them where they can play without
risk of persecution or retribution; i periodically ask
various online sites to do this; most of them admit that
it's a wonderful idea but they're still too scared of the
ostrich farm and so they decline.

download/install the ppro client (which will be the default
human-centric client for the pbwc) and create an account
on the central server (ppro-atlanta). if you're really
bold then you can also install your own ppro server and
play at your own private site. the complete instructions
are all at the site that im not allowed to name.

ray bornert

[Voj]

Concusion of OP. I've just received ps security answer and .. well I feel relieved.. Thought it should be crossposted here

[ QUOTE ]

Hello Vojislav,

Thank you for taking the time to compose such a comprehensive response.

We do indeed have the ability to check and monitor all of the bot
indicators you mentioned. Before sending out our standard WinHoldem
warning, I reviewed several of these indicators for your account. I
concluded that it was highly unlikely that you were actually using the
WinHoldem bot.

However, it is important that we inform players that we are aware of
any
prohibited programs they may be running. We need to be pro-active about
informing our players of our policy on bots. In this case, by posting
our
email thread to the forums you are helping us spread the word, and
ultimately this benefits all concerned.

We will not be taking any negative action against your account. It is
not
our aim to persecute those that do not pose a mallicious threat.

The claims of bot programmers are typically exaggerated. The new claims
of
the WinHoldem programmer are no exception. They may be improving their
software, but we are stepping up our defenses. You cannot run this
software for any length of time without being caught. When we catch a
bot
user, they are dealt with severely.

We will not have our card room integrity ruined by these programs.

I hope this has addressed some of your concerns. Your account is in
good-
standing and you are free to continue playing.

Regards,

Bob
PokerStars Security


[/ QUOTE ]