Tournament Tactic Question - Page 2

Bullet_Dodger · #11 10-25-2006, 02:31 PM

I'm glad you learned the lesson of never getting all the chips in as an 80/20 favorite.

registrar · #12 10-25-2006, 02:36 PM

Well, it's not exactly why I check sometimes.

FortunaMaximus · #13 10-25-2006, 02:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well, it's not exactly why I check sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you're giving yourself a harder flop decision tree then. When in doubt, raise the small bet. Flatcall, checked to you on flop, bet it hard on those same flops, you've got him to invest more PF.

registrar · #14 10-25-2006, 02:49 PM

Don't you find, at low buyins, that you'll stack a flopped pair a lot more when you check pre-flop and escape a lot more easily when villain comes out betting an overcard flop?

At lower buyins, I'm in much less of a hurry to start building a stack in general. Opponents will donate chips much more easily and big stacks don't exploit their advantage.

FortunaMaximus · #15 10-25-2006, 02:56 PM

Yeah, and that principle might still apply all the way up the online ladder. However, it's not a habit you want to get into, you'd hate to have to work on that leak after you've made the jump, neh?

Anyway, the odds of the OOP opponent hitting his exact overcard on the flop are pretty low, and he'll tell you otherwise after it flops if he's got that odor to him.

bobbycharles · #16 10-25-2006, 02:59 PM

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At lower buyins, I'm in much less of a hurry to start building a stack in general. Opponents will donate chips much more easily and big stacks don't exploit their advantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not meaning to hijack this thread, but this is an excellent point....would you care to expound on this idea. I'm a small buy-in guy with a big enough b/r to start moving up.
I've experienced this phenomenon in the low buy-ins where I've played an ABC TAG game that has resulted in a slow build of chips, but am usually able to pull out of it and build a stack later on. As I've moved up in limits however, I've noticed the longer it takes me to build my stack, it seems to be more difficult to recover than it has been in the low buy-ins. In the Stars Sunday Million, how do you play this hand? In general, do you take more coin flips early to get a stack?

RichC. · #17 10-25-2006, 03:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
At lower buyins, I'm in much less of a hurry to start building a stack in general. Opponents will donate chips much more easily and big stacks don't exploit their advantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not meaning to hijack this thread, but this is an excellent point....would you care to expound on this idea. I'm a small buy-in guy with a big enough b/r to start moving up.
I've experienced this phenomenon in the low buy-ins where I've played an ABC TAG game that has resulted in a slow build of chips, but am usually able to pull out of it and build a stack later on. As I've moved up in limits however, I've noticed the longer it takes me to build my stack, it seems to be more difficult to recover than it has been in the low buy-ins. In the Stars Sunday Million, how do you play this hand? In general, do you take more coin flips early to get a stack?

[/ QUOTE ]

raise more with posisition.

or just pushbot [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Jeff76 · #18 10-25-2006, 03:17 PM

FWIW, I'm raising a LOT of hands here. The only reason to check JJ here is to slow play it, and I don't think JJ is strong enough to slow play PF. Really though, I don't think I'm slowplaying any big pairs in this situation simply because the chance are to great the SB will call a raise "on princple" and there's nothing better than being in position with an overpair in an inflated pot.

But HU you have a huge advantage being in position, and the cards are almost meaningless.

Regarding you having "learned your lesson", you haven't. Humans tend to learn things by direct causation like "ouch, that hurt. Don't touch the hot burner." This is benifical for most areas of life (and probably one of the things that allows us to survive past the age of 5), but it is absoltely false in poker. Results do NOT match the causation, and people who mistakningly link the two will end up broke at poker. This can take the form of hitting a longshot (I hit my flush once for a big pot, therefore I should always call with my big draws) or failure to make profitable bets out of fear (Every time I get KK an ace comes out on the flop, so I'm going to wait to raise until after the flop). Both examples are mistakes that cost money and yet are things players will adobt based on their experiences.

Bottom line: your line was perfect and your opponents was awful. You outplayed him, and to boot his play may have even been reinforced in his mind as being profitable. In the long run, this is good for you if you continue to make profitable plays. If you now fail to make profitable plays, though, you both will have mis-learned something and both become fishier for the experience. In fact, if villan in this hand recognizes that he got lucky and perhaps his move wasn't profitable, it is possible for him to plug a leak through good self-examination while you introduce one into your own game. Do NOT let this happen. Be glad you got in as an 80% favorite. You'll win enough when you're the 20% dog to make up for losing this hand, but you'll not do as well in your poker career if you avoid getting it all in as the 80% favorite because you are fearful of getting sucked out on.

sobefuddled · #19 10-25-2006, 03:31 PM

Nope. Not a bnad beat post tho if you want to take it that way go for it. I'm making an observation about Tournament
Tactics which I believe may just be accurate at this cheap buy-in level. I see myself as long-term goal oriented in this situation. In Doyle's first book he actually comes right out and warns you not to go for the big pots early on in the torunament. I subscribe to the notion that in Game theory whenever piossible let as many of your opponents as possible take themselves out. I broke that rule when I called his push. If the goal is to WIN the tournament. I have found that staying at 10x's the BB is my best rule of thumb before the first break. After that I would undoubtedly play things differently. That's what I'm thinking and so far no one has changed my mind...
Ali

FortunaMaximus · #20 10-25-2006, 03:36 PM

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In Doyle's first book he actually comes right out and warns you not to go for the big pots early on in the torunament.

[/ QUOTE ]

That ol' cowboy gives funny advice sometimes. Here's a word from a young gun...

Check the front pages of that book, see what year that came out. Things have changed a lot in tournament poker since he came out with that bible.

Anyway, that attitude is gonna get you pretty far around here too. Best be able to back it up.