FR .01/.02 on PS: big raise on river

[jmc999]

Grunch:
I have a tough time putting villain on a hand that beats us, except for AA. KK/JJ/44/55 should have bet the turn from our check. I'm curious so I call.

[kurto]

If you are a beginner, I have some suggestions:
(1) I would suggest that you tighten up your hand playing. JKs, while pretty, is not really a great hand 8 handed utg. Learning the value of position is something you want to get a handle quickly.
(2) The weaker your hand, the smaller you want the pot to be. So things like checkraises (assuming they don't take the pot down) build pots faster. This is not something you're looking to do with top pair, weak kicker, out of position against a preflop raiser

For this hand... If you get to the flop, I would suggest any of the following-
FLOP-
(1) Lead into him- if he's ahead, he likely raises you here. You're happy to take a small pot with a small hand.
(2) Check/call. By doing this, you get to see how he handles the turn. You keep the pot small and hopefully allows you to get to the river with your top pair So So kicker cheaply.

TURN- I lead no matter what. You're more then likely ahead here. You want to build a pot. Bet 2/3s pot.

RIVER - Terrible card. If he didn't fold the turn, he certainly had a King (or passive aces). If he's tight, his kicker is probably better. If he's a maniac, you could be ahead. Either make a real blocking bet (1/2 pot) or check call if you feel there's a decent chance you're still ahead.

[Ludanto]

Thanks to all who replied. I will try to think about those things in the future.

[kurto]

don't forget AK and KQ

[Ludanto]

"don't forget AK and KQ"

Which context did you want to put that in exactly?

[kurto]

he was having a tough time picturing hands that beat KJ. Both AK and KQ (on top of the hands he listed) very well might have callled your Check raise and would be beating you on the river.

[T.J. Combo]

A river shove says he called the flop with a 5. I fold this.

It's insanely standard for villains at 0.01/0.02 to call the flop with second pair and hope for trips or two pair or something.

Edit: Sorry, missed PF action. Fold this or raise it UTG. 2 fat suited face cards aren't worth calling 6x BB's with. As played, fold river. The tiny flop bet coupled with the pre-flop raise from real early position makes it real easy for him to have AA or KK.

KK had you crushed from start to finish and AA just caught up. At the river, we only have to call a pot sized bet to show down top two, so we're definately getting good showdown odds here.

Really the only hands that raise here that you're beating are A,K AQ and AJ.

If villain is especially donkish, he could've raised with A,5 PF.

I dunno, tough fold. Lots of stuff that beats us here, having a hard time seeing what we're ahead of that would make this bet. Even though everything says fold, I probably call here. Reload if beaten. NH.

[Ludanto]

Thanks T.J. Combo, I appreciate your response. (Not that I wouldn't appreciate the other replies.) You say that two big, suited facecards aren't worth it to call 6BB. I always have a hard time to decide what IS worth calling HOW BIG of a raise. Is there a rule that on can follow (at least as long as one doesn't really have a good feel for it)? Which hand would I be enough to call here?
You call the villains flop bet tiny (if I understand you correctly) and he already bet the pot. What is a normal sized bet in this situation then?
Thank you for being one of the few who have written what they would do after the villain's river raise.

To all that responded in this thread:
I know that I might have some major leaks in my style right now and that many things that I do might be seen as FPS. But (interprete this as you want) on the .01/.02 level on PS there is some crazy game going on. There are often huge gaps between how good players at one table are. Some seem very decent and others seem to continue to do what they did at the play money tables. Because of all this the variance is sometimes really getting to me and instinctively I am trying to adjust somehow my way of playing. Unfortunately many of this adjustments can be very -EV if seen from the "good poker play" angle but they seem right for certain situations on .01/.02. Because of this it is very nice to have a forum where guys like you remind me of why certain things should be done in a certain way in poker.

Are there really often huge skill gaps on PS .01/.02 tables or am I just making that up?
Sometimes I just think that playing solid poker on that level requires more than the standard 20 buy-ins if I look at what some people pull of one time after the other. But that might just as well be frustration caused by chasers and overconfidents [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Dunkman]

First thing last...yes, there are big skill gaps. I've gone and sat in those games plenty of times with friends of mine who are just starting with poker (no cheating of course, just playing poker.) I'm no expert, but I'm a fairly experienced player, soundly beating nl50 and probably getting ready to move up to 100 soon. There must be other players doing this as well, because, although I've seen some truly insane stuff there, I've also run into some very compentent players.

Onto the hand here. Hands like KJ can always be trouble with deep stacks, especially in full ring. The problem is, when you make a hand you'll either win a small pot against worse hands or lose a big one against better hands. It's called reverse implied odds. Sure, you could flop Adxdxd, or aqt, or kkj, but more likely when you make a hand it'll be on a board like kt8, where you're behind ak, kq, kt, and you have j9, qt, 97 all drawing very live against you. If someone is sticking around, they probably have one of these hands, and you have to catch up/dodge draws, and even if you do spike a J, you'll wonder if it made a straight, etc. I'd much rather play 87 than I would KJ, because it's very easy for me to figure out where I stand most of the time.

The initial limp is bad, just fold this UTG. Then, calling the raise is worse. What's his raising range? A pretty typical EP raising range could look like AJs+, AQ+, 99+, KQs. I won't run pokerstove on this range, but suffice to say you're a significant underdog to the vast majority of these hands, and even if you hit you won't have any idea whether you made the best hand or an expensive second best hand. Also, playing UTG, and thus out of position (acting first), you will make less money when you make the best hand and lose more money when you have the worst hand.

Keep at it, post in the forum and read, and you'll figure this stuff out in no time.

[ChipStorm]

kurto and Dunkman are pretty much dead on; my two cents:

Preflop: fold, and definitely fold to the raise.

Flop: c/r is your worst option. Leading is absolutely fine. Given the preflop action you'll be read for a PP, so I might check/call, as you may well induce bets from lower pairs (JJ/TT/99/etc) that could otherwise find a fold if you bet out. And you keep the pot small.

Turn: As played, it's time to lead and get the money in, as kurto says. Value bet city.

River: Given the turn check-through, AK may now think his two pair is a winner, and I'm willing to lose this much to AA/KK/JJ. Since AK is still as likely as AA+KK, I call and expect to win maybe 50% of the time, which is +EV.