|
|
#12
09-12-2006, 04:05 PM
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Overthinking this hand? KTs UTG Party 1/2
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Not good. Bet > Check/Call > Check/Fold [/ QUOTE ] If I did check that turn, I would not call a turn bet either, becuz I would not be able to turn down a chance to get 2-1 on my raise. Thats my way of saying I think check/raise is > Check/Call. [/ QUOTE ] ILP, what hands do you put him on once he bets? I definitely think enough random draws and weak pairs are in his range to call down, but I do not think there are enough to checkraise. I still like a turn bet, but once he denies to take a freecard in a multiway pot I think QJs/JTs type hands are no longer in his range. 
|
|
#13
09-12-2006, 04:12 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Overthinking this hand? KTs UTG Party 1/2
OP: Have you actually observed this tag's play and seen it to be good? Assuming someone with TAG preflop stats to automatically be a good player can be a large mistake
|
|
#14
09-12-2006, 04:23 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Overthinking this hand? KTs UTG Party 1/2
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Not good. Bet > Check/Call > Check/Fold [/ QUOTE ] If I did check that turn, I would not call a turn bet either, becuz I would not be able to turn down a chance to get 2-1 on my raise. Thats my way of saying I think check/raise is > Check/Call. [/ QUOTE ] I think check-raising that turn is pretty bad. Button can't have a 9 there? Well, a lot of perfectly decent players would cold call with T9s or 98s or A9s in a heartbeat in that spot. And if he has a king, it's most likely KQ or KJ which outkicks us.
|
|
#15
09-12-2006, 04:24 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Overthinking this hand? KTs UTG Party 1/2
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Not good. Bet > Check/Call > Check/Fold [/ QUOTE ] If I did check that turn, I would not call a turn bet either, becuz I would not be able to turn down a chance to get 2-1 on my raise. Thats my way of saying I think check/raise is > Check/Call. [/ QUOTE ] ILP, what hands do you put him on once he bets? I definitely think enough random draws and weak pairs are in his range to call down, but I do not think there are enough to checkraise. I still like a turn bet, but once he denies to take a freecard in a multiway pot I think QJs/JTs type hands are no longer in his range. [/ QUOTE ] Buff, all your points are valid, and whether check/raising is > than calling is certainly debatable. Heres the conversation that would be going on in my head after I checked the turn: "Ok the BTN bet and hes a good player, I think a good player wouldve raised the flop with Kx or 9x with two people committed on the flop, so I dont think he has these type of hands. "I dont have much of a read on the BB, but if he had 9x he probably wouldve checkraised the flop or the turn." "Bottom line is, I dont know what these two players have, but I think I am significantly less than a 2-1 underdog to have the best hand after this action and Im geting 2-1 on a turn raise, therefore I raise." "By the way did I mention how sexy you are lately? Yeah I am sexy, someday the world will realize that." So thats basically why I would raise the turn, if I had checked the turn.
|
|
#16
09-12-2006, 04:30 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Overthinking this hand? KTs UTG Party 1/2
[ QUOTE ]
"Ok the BTN bet and hes a good player, I think a good player wouldve raised the flop with Kx or 9x with two people committed on the flop, so I dont think he has these type of hands. [/ QUOTE ] A good player is far more likely to have just called the flop with Kx or 9x than he is to fire into three opponents on this board with JTs when he has the option of taking a free card. Perhaps if he has exactly J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] he decides to gambool but otherwise that's just a terrible bet.
|
|
#17
09-12-2006, 04:36 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Overthinking this hand? KTs UTG Party 1/2
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Not good. Bet > Check/Call > Check/Fold [/ QUOTE ] If I did check that turn, I would not call a turn bet either, becuz I would not be able to turn down a chance to get 2-1 on my raise. Thats my way of saying I think check/raise is > Check/Call. [/ QUOTE ] I think check-raising that turn is pretty bad. Button can't have a 9 there? Well, a lot of perfectly decent players would cold call with T9s or 98s or A9s in a heartbeat in that spot. And if he has a king, it's most likely KQ or KJ which outkicks us. [/ QUOTE ] I disagree. Honestly I just cant pass up this turn raise getting 2-1 on my money. This is why I have an oversized bankroll, so I can make these high variance plays. I think I am significanly less than a 2-1 underdog after this action which is why I am raising getting 2-1 on my money, and if the BTN 3bets me or the other guy 3bets me after I take this line, I will have a very easy fold IMO. So its like a free roll turn raise to me, Im always getting 2-1 on my money when im best and when im losing I basically lose almost nothing since I was going to pay 2BBs to see a showdown anyways, assuming someone 3bets the turn. Now I suppose there will be times I run into a passively played AK,KQ,KJ,9x hand that just calls me down, so basically I will lose an extra big bet in this scenario, but im not too worried about that. Against sane opponents, I am checkraising this turn every time after this action getting 2-1 on my money. If Im wrong I really dont care, cuz I really dont have the ability not to checkraise in that spot. Call this a crutch but when I may have the best hand and I believe I am significantly less than a 2-1 underdog and I am getting 2-1 on a turn raise and I know exactly what to do if reraised, im raising every time. If I am not against sane opponents I am not raising this turn becuz then I will not know what to do if reraised.
|
|
#18
09-12-2006, 04:42 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Overthinking this hand? KTs UTG Party 1/2
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] "Ok the BTN bet and hes a good player, I think a good player wouldve raised the flop with Kx or 9x with two people committed on the flop, so I dont think he has these type of hands. [/ QUOTE ] A good player is far more likely to have just called the flop with Kx or 9x than he is to fire into three opponents on this board with JTs when he has the option of taking a free card. Perhaps if he has exactly J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] he decides to gambool but otherwise that's just a terrible bet. [/ QUOTE ] Perhaps your right Nate, I honestly dont have the ability not to checkraise the turn getting 2-1 on my money for better or for worse. Maybe its a good thing im always betting this turn. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]
|
|
#19
09-12-2006, 04:45 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Overthinking this hand? KTs UTG Party 1/2
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Not good. Bet > Check/Call > Check/Fold [/ QUOTE ] If I did check that turn, I would not call a turn bet either, becuz I would not be able to turn down a chance to get 2-1 on my raise. Thats my way of saying I think check/raise is > Check/Call. [/ QUOTE ] I think check-raising that turn is pretty bad. Button can't have a 9 there? Well, a lot of perfectly decent players would cold call with T9s or 98s or A9s in a heartbeat in that spot. And if he has a king, it's most likely KQ or KJ which outkicks us. [/ QUOTE ] I disagree. Honestly I just cant pass up this turn raise getting 2-1 on my money. This is why I have an oversized bankroll, so I can make these high variance plays. I think I am significanly less than a 2-1 underdog after this action which is why I am raising getting 2-1 on my money, and if the BTN 3bets me or the other guy 3bets me after I take this line, I will have a very easy fold IMO. So its like a free roll turn raise to me, Im always getting 2-1 on my money when im best and when im losing I basically lose almost nothing since I was going to pay 2BBs to see a showdown anyways, assuming someone 3bets the turn. Now I suppose there will be times I run into a passively played AK,KQ,KJ,9x hand that just calls me down, so basically I will lose an extra big bet in this scenario, but im not too worried about that. Against sane opponents, I am checkraising this turn every time after this action getting 2-1 on my money. If Im wrong I really dont care, cuz I really dont have the ability not to checkraise in that spot. Call this a crutch but when I may have the best hand and I believe I am significantly less than a 2-1 underdog and I am getting 2-1 on a turn raise and I know exactly what to do if reraised, im raising every time. If I am not against sane opponents I am not raising this turn becuz then I will not know what to do if reraised. [/ QUOTE ] What hand are you putting the TAG button on? K3o? I find it ironic that you give players so little credit for their calls when your one of this forum's foremost advocates for the use of passive preflop lines.
|
|
#20
09-12-2006, 04:58 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Overthinking this hand? KTs UTG Party 1/2
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Not good. Bet > Check/Call > Check/Fold [/ QUOTE ] If I did check that turn, I would not call a turn bet either, becuz I would not be able to turn down a chance to get 2-1 on my raise. Thats my way of saying I think check/raise is > Check/Call. [/ QUOTE ] I think check-raising that turn is pretty bad. Button can't have a 9 there? Well, a lot of perfectly decent players would cold call with T9s or 98s or A9s in a heartbeat in that spot. And if he has a king, it's most likely KQ or KJ which outkicks us. [/ QUOTE ] I disagree. Honestly I just cant pass up this turn raise getting 2-1 on my money. This is why I have an oversized bankroll, so I can make these high variance plays. I think I am significanly less than a 2-1 underdog after this action which is why I am raising getting 2-1 on my money, and if the BTN 3bets me or the other guy 3bets me after I take this line, I will have a very easy fold IMO. So its like a free roll turn raise to me, Im always getting 2-1 on my money when im best and when im losing I basically lose almost nothing since I was going to pay 2BBs to see a showdown anyways, assuming someone 3bets the turn. Now I suppose there will be times I run into a passively played AK,KQ,KJ,9x hand that just calls me down, so basically I will lose an extra big bet in this scenario, but im not too worried about that. Against sane opponents, I am checkraising this turn every time after this action getting 2-1 on my money. If Im wrong I really dont care, cuz I really dont have the ability not to checkraise in that spot. Call this a crutch but when I may have the best hand and I believe I am significantly less than a 2-1 underdog and I am getting 2-1 on a turn raise and I know exactly what to do if reraised, im raising every time. If I am not against sane opponents I am not raising this turn becuz then I will not know what to do if reraised. [/ QUOTE ] What hand are you putting the TAG button on? K3o? I find it ironic that you give players so little credit for their calls when your one of this forum's foremost advocates for the use of passive preflop lines. [/ QUOTE ] When have I ever advocated a passive preflop line? I will assume you mistyped and meant postflop. Let me tell you something Nate, In my mind, I have never once adovcated a passive postflop line, nor have I advocated an aggressive line, I only advocate money making lines. I dont think in terms of passiveness or aggressiveness. I simply tell the hero which line I think will make/save him the most money and thats it. Certainly there will be times that I am wrong, but thats my overall philosophy behind every one of my posts. About the hand. Honestly, I dont know what a 1-2 tag will have when he takes that line. If I were to guess I would say his most likely hands are KQ,KJ, and I Have no idea what the other player has. But just becuz I think the Tag's most likely hands are KQ or KJ doesnt mean that a turn raising getting 2-1 on my money is incorrect. I still believe I am less than a 2-1 underdog in this situation, and that is why I am raising the turn getting 2-1 on my money. Who knows, maybe the tag will fold KQ or KJ if I take this powerful line, that is certainly not why I am making this play, but it is a small benefit to this play, and just becuz I raise the turn doesnt mean I have to bet the river. The turn just happens to be a special case to me. If the BB had folded the turn, I would then not raise getting 1:1 on my money becuz I no longer percieve a raise as profitable.
|
 |
|
|
Linear Mode
