A couple limpers and a BB pusher

[MyTurn2Raise]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes it would be marginally +EV with the dead money if he were shoving 55+, AJ+, but that is best case scenario. If he's pushing stuff like 55/66 or AJ here, it's almost certainly not 100% of the time, probably a small % of the time.

Most of the time his range here is more like 99+, AQ+. In a 20/180, I am certain you can find a better spot with your stack and these blinds than calling AI hoping his range is wider than it probably should be.

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great analysis


OP: Why are you just limping into this pot to begin with?
I think it is raise or fold from the getgo.

[McMelchior]

[ QUOTE ]
OP: Why are you just limping into this pot to begin with?
I think it is raise or fold from the getgo.

[/ QUOTE ]

After UTG+1's open-limp it is absolutely correct to limp here. Your 88 can tolerate no heat at this point, and there are 5 players + OL to act after you. And if you get called by BB and OL you're in bad shape on most flops. You might as well raise 72o.

EDIT: And folding would be meaningless with stacks this deep. Call and try to flop a set [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

It is not uncommon to see players op-limping AK, AQ and big pairs from EP at this level. The only reason to raise 88 would be to camouflage your big pairs when you raise with them. And at this level players are just not attentive enough to make this play +EV, considering the cost of when you have to fold on the flop (or to a re-raise) the vast majority of times. It's simply FPS to raise here.

Regarding the OP's question: I often see players make these type of gross over-pushes with AK, because they're scared at the thought of playing big slick OOP if they dont connect. And ... not that seldom I see AA treated like this - in the hope that some donk puts them on a low PP or AK-AQ ...

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[MyTurn2Raise]

OP's M is just over 9 here, I don't like limping in with so many players left to act here.

[jon_1van]

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OP's M is just over 9 here, I don't like limping in with so many players left to act here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a limp behind is the ONLY play.

[jon_1van]

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Just from experience, I don't think this is AJ-AK that often. Granted, I haven't seen these called a huge amount of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you do with AQ or AK in the BB here?

[MyTurn2Raise]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OP's M is just over 9 here, I don't like limping in with so many players left to act here.

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I think a limp behind is the ONLY play.

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Why is that?
I am relatively new to MTTs and it seems like limping here is the exact play one doesn't want to make in the Orange Zone. I thought strong moves to the pot with first-in vig were key to playing the Orange zone. A mid pair gives crappy implied odds, can be pushed out by a weaker hand from behind, and puts one in precarious post-flop decisions if the set doesn't hit. What am I missing?

[jon_1van]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought strong moves to the pot with first-in vig were key to playing the Orange zone

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This is true. But with a guy already limping in front of me I can't be the 1st one in.


I have around 24 BB. If I limp and get pushed out I only lose about 4% of my stack...not a huge deal.

If I limp in and get to see a flop I may have a great oppurtunity to double up. Anyway you slice it I'll probably have an easy hand to play. I either whiff the flop and fold early or atttempt to get to showdown cheap. Or I smack the flop and try to double up. I'm not setting myself up to play a big pot with a 2nd pair type hand. I won't have to worry "Are my eights good on that Q 4 6 flop??" "Man the pot is already 1/2 of my stack...I can't just check/fold...but I don't want to spew all my money to AQ, KQ, KK, or AA....UG what do I do now???"


If I raise I'll only get action from LP players with very big hands. I also give the 1st limper a chance to reraise if he was limping with AA/KK.


Ideally, what I want it to limp, have another limper in LP see a flop with a hand like KQ. Now if that guy hits a K or a Q AND I hit an 8, I'm very likely to double up with relatively little risk. If I had raised the KQ would fold and I lose almost all of my implied odds. I forced all the hands that could erroneously think they are ahead from playing with me. I forced all the AA-JJ, AK hands to reraise preflop. IE no opponent makes any mistake against me.



Limping would be much more marginal if I had 8-12 BB. In that case I cost myself a much larger fraction of my stack AND my upside it dramatically limited because I can only win 8-12BB (remember, I have to be winning at least that to make playing for set value even-moneyish). And I won't always double up. Sometimes my opponent will whiff and fold to any aggression.

[MyTurn2Raise]

ty very much...I might be messing some situations up

[Sherman]

Good post. My guess is 99+, AK for his range. I love this post b/c I see this all the time. The guy in the BB goes A/I w/AK and gets called by the guy in your spot who limped with his pocket pair then decided it was worth a coin flip after all.

It's even better when I see the guy in the BB make a big raise (not A/I) and then the guy in your spot push back A/I with what is obviously not a high pocket pair.

[lemonPeel]

Pushing with AK in the BB isn't bad at all, even with his stack. Although, if I had his stack, a nice solid raise to 1200-1400 ish would probably get the job done just as well.