How to handle VERY loose live games?

[grandgnu]

I understand what you're saying about adjusting. From my perspective, I'm playing 4-6 tables at a time. And eventually when I can get a new 20" flat screen, I'll be looking to play 8-10 tables at a time.

This means I tend to play on autopilot for the most part. I don't have as much energy or time to devote to watching each opponent. I have to make due sometimes with just the stats from PokerTracker and the awesome PokerAce HUD.

I'm still able to change it up a bit. If I notice a table is playing loose-passive, I'll come into pots with the A/4 and A/5 type hands from various positions.

Still, I find Omaha Hi/Lo to be pretty easy to play on auto-pilot. Most of my decisions are relatively easy and obvious, and I know when I want to limp to pull more players in, when I want to bet to push players out or bet to sweeten the pot, etc.

Loosening up your starting hands too much can be the one thing that turns you from a profitable player into a losing player.

I don't have a problem playing a hand like 10/10/J/K suited in late position at a loose and passive table. But coming in from early position is another story. I also don't have a problem, if I notice my table is relatively tight, with attempting to steal the blinds from late position or bet on flops that likely didn't help my tight opponents. Those pots have been pretty significant over the course of my hands in improving my win-rate.

And obviously, don't start playing middle card hands, those will be the death of ya.

I've only recently returned to multi-tabling online. It's been awhile, but I'm staying focused and doing my best. I've played three days so far, sessions lasting from 30-90 minutes total.

Sometimes multiple sessions over the course of a day. Thus far, I have only logged 7 total hours of play (4-6 tables each time)

The limits I've played (starting with a $500 bankroll) are:

$0.50/$1
$1/$2
$2/$4

I know it's not sustainable, but currently I have made $32/hr not counting the $100 deposit bonus. My bankroll is up to $820. My stats list me as "loose/good" after 1500 hands. I know this sample size is too small, and that I can't expect that hourly rate to continue throughout, but I'm feeling good about my play thus far.

I had played awhile back and had 13,700 hands, which listed me as "Tight/Good". I had earned about 4.5BB/100 hands.

I'm looking forward to moving up to the 3/6 and eventually 5/10 limits. I also did a little datamining on the 20/40 games and found them to be pretty loose so far. The players were playing a good amount of junk hands. I was wishing I had the 6 grand bankroll to play it.

[benwood]

Grandgnu:I know you'll do it,my friend.Good luck to you.Ben

[grandgnu]

Ugh, I'm such a donkey. This thread is about live poker. Didn't mean to apply my online theory to live games. Although I've found plenty of live players who play Omaha 8 like it's Hold 'Em, overvalueing two pair hands and A/K in the hole. Or, they see J/J/J/2 and think they're in great shape pre-flop.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
there are a few players who just seem to love raising, with absolutely anything... 29TK, 47TQ, etc. They miss the flop completely and keep on betting thru the river.

[/ QUOTE ]Mutant - In terms of loosening up you starting hand standards, you're dealing with two opposite effects. You want to loosen up in a looser game but you want to tighten up in an aggressive game. How much looser if you do loosen up? Hard to say exactly. I think you loosen up (or not) on a case by case basis.

Is there any way you can isolate yourself against these fools? If you raise yourself, does that tend to knock out the tigher opponents? (You have to try it a few times to see). The obvious problem with playing too loosely is your other opponents will gain an advantage over you.

[ QUOTE ]
I have loosened up and started calling with some hands I would normally muck with heavy action like 3 big cards and a dangler (KQT2,etc) and low hands like A57T.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd still avoid 2TQKn, 2TQKs, and A57Tn.

Some simulation results (10000 deal totals against eight random hands).
hand.....high..low...scoop..total
2TQKd....527....0....716....1243
2TQKs....407....0....629....1036
2TQKn....264....0....548.....812
A57Td....476..361....641....1478
A57Ts....401..374....531....1306
A57Tn....285..414....331....1030

But go ahead and play the double suited 2TQK, and the single or double suited A57T hands in these games. (Unless a beginner, you should probably be normally playing the double suited A57T, at least from late position or for a half bet from the small blind).

[ QUOTE ]
Pretty much I hit the flop well for those hands or fold, and also pay attention to what the regular tight crowd does with those flops and if the super-rocks start raising its time to go away most times unless I hit the flop pretty hard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems reasonable.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[Buzz]

grandgnu - Interesting post. Thanks for sharing.

Maybe I'm wrong - and anyhow, different strokes for different folks - but I can't help thinking playing multiple games on a computer screen against unseen foes would soon get to be a real drag - just a very tedious chore.

I don't know.... Maybe I have the wrong attitude since I just play for recreation and the way you're playing doesn't sound like recreation to me. (It would be positively dreadful in a typical low limit live brick and mortar casino setting). I'm not putting you down. On the contrary, my hat is off to you because you're found a way to beat the game. And it looks like you're giving sage advice, which is much appreciated.

Buzz

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
I would add in ANY connected four cards to see a flop (as long as you have position during that hand). So, if the raisers enter the pot on your right, you look down and see 6,7,8,9....I would call this bet and see a flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dave - I think that's all right sometime, as a sort of change-up. But the truth is those middle card hands, even if connected, are simply not as good as too many other hands.

simulation result:
6789n.....437....10.....197....644
(hand)..(high).(low).(scoop).(total)

That 644 total is simply very, very low in terms of how most other hands you'd consider pure trash fare. The hand is no damned good at all for low and you're usually going to get screwed for high - and when you do win for high, you'll often split with another equal high and almost always will have to split with low. I'm convinced middle cards are death in this game. I think you can only play them from the unraised big blind - and then you have to be very careful not to get trapped.

Buzz

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
grandgnu - Interesting post. Thanks for sharing.

Maybe I'm wrong - and anyhow, different strokes for different folks - but I can't help thinking playing multiple games on a computer screen against unseen foes would soon get to be a real drag - just a very tedious chore.

I don't know.... Maybe I have the wrong attitude since I just play for recreation and the way you're playing doesn't sound like recreation to me. (It would be positively dreadful in a typical low limit live brick and mortar casino setting). I'm not putting you down. On the contrary, my hat is off to you because you're found a way to beat the game. And it looks like you're giving sage advice, which is much appreciated.

Buzz

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if my advice qualifies as "sage" advice. I haven't even hit the 20,000 hand mark. I believe in order to know if you're a long-term winner in the game, you need between 20-50 thousand hands, to cover for both positive and negative variance.

Yes, you're right, it isn't a whole lot of fun, it isn't glamorous what I do. It's a "grind" as they say. But it really isn't that bad. I get a lot of joy in making money in such an easy fashion.

Plus, thus far, I've only played 30-90 minutes per session before taking a break. It's not so bad compared with some of the tournaments I've played. Where you outlast hundreds of other players, only to finish barely in the money and make a middling profit that wasn't worth the 4-6 hours you spent in the tourney.

I'm finding the cash games much more rewarding. Plus, I consider myself semi-pro as far as poker is concerned. While I'm not depending on it to pay the bills, I take it more seriously than a hobby. I play to win money, that's my primary concern. That is 80-85% of the reason I play. The other 10-15% is divided up between "having fun" and "being challenged"

I enjoy my free time greatly, and I view poker as a way to eventually achieve more of that free time. I don't plan to go pro until I have between 3-6 months living expenses socked away, and a proven track record of profitable play that will pay my bills and allow me to save and cover healthcare costs.

That may not be for some time. I have a job where I could be in management if I wanted, but I've done that gig before. You're married to your job, and when you go home, people are still calling you and bugging you for other peoples screw ups. No thank you.

I actually only work 32 hours per week by choice. My wife works 18. We don't purchase many things unless we can do so with cash. We sock away $50 per week into a joint savings account. We try to eat at home and bring meals to work, rather than waste money on take out all the time.

We've got a nice car, a brand new couch, some custom-built computers (I build and overclock systems as a hobby) and no kids tying us down. Life is pretty comfortable, although we aren't yet ready to purchase our first home.

We hope to be there within 3 years time, pay off the credit card and the car loan, then go from there. My day job is stable and I'm well liked by the owner, so I've got a reliable position and a one-minute commute to work, not too shabby.

Still, there are days I dread working there, because some of my coworkers can be a real problem to deal with. They work 70-90 hour weeks, in three different jobs and lead miserable lives. And they bring all that negativity with them to work. It can really be draining.

I long for the days when I can play a few hours of poker a day, and then get outside and enjoy the afternoon, get some exercise, enjoy nature, etc.

I enjoy the Omaha hi/lo limit games because once you have the basic hand selection and strategy down, it's pretty easy from there. The players are god-awful in most of my experience, so it's easy money.

Whether it will be enough money for me to live off of, I can't say yet. How long it will remain this way is another matter as well. I believe a good limit hold em player can expect to make 1-2BB's/100 hands, while a good Omaha hi/lo player can expect to make 4-5BB's/100 hands.

With multi-tabling, I'm doing roughly 200 hands an hour, so that's 8-10BB's/hr, which you can't hope to get sitting at one table in the casino.

Once I get another monitor and start 8-tabling or more, it gets even better (at least, in theory, I hope!) Add in rakeback and life gets even sweeter.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy playing live. But the only casino near me is Foxwoods, and you're lucky if you can get one game of Omaha hi/lo 5/10 with a kill going. Not to mention the 100 miles there and back. And their terrible service and rake.

My real concern with the online poker is this: If I'm 8-tabling and making 15-20BB's/hr (400 hands per hour roughly), how long can the poker economy support what I'm taking out of it? Sure, there's lots of money to be had out there, but how long can it last?

How long before the losers in the game start to drift away, and the tables become tight and rocky and less profitable? Especially with Omaha hi/lo, since the bad players are at a much larger disadvantage than they would be in a game like limit Hold 'Em.

Wow, I'm rambling here. Sorry for the life story. Anyway, I'm really pleased at the moment with the online gig. I've only been back for an extremely short time, so my happiness with all of this is subject to change. I'm trying very hard not to get my hopes up too high.

Making $32/hr or more would be great, but I'd be happy making $20/hr playing poker. Not that I'm looking to settle, just trying to be realistic. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not continue to play tight and strong starting hands? It appears that they're willing to build the pots and do all the betting for you. Why spew chips with 3rd best hands, especially with lots of players involved in the pot?
Be patient, take the big scores from your hands that play well in multi-way pots.

[/ QUOTE ]Grandgnu - Depends on your opponents, of course, but after just a short time, players who are much tighter than the norm don't get much action in live games.

Maybe it's different on-line. In a brick and mortar casino, that ultra tighter than thou stuff works when you first sit down against unknown players, and it often works in tournaments, especially in the opening stages, but starting at the $3/$6 level, live Omaha-8 ring games in casinos tend to have a number of seasoned Omaha-8 denizons who are playing the other players as much as their own starting hands.

Every time I go to the casino I see some of the same faces playing Omaha-8. I mean, some of them must be there playing Omaha-8 almost all the time!

Plus after your initial exposure to the game, it's as boring as watching paint dry to play Omaha-8 ultra tightly.

I'm not saying you shouldn't play tightly - but if you play often enough and long enough to become known to your opponents, you can carry tight play too far.

I guess it depends on how badly your opponents play. I'll agree that some of them play very badly.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not continue to play tight and strong starting hands? It appears that they're willing to build the pots and do all the betting for you. Why spew chips with 3rd best hands, especially with lots of players involved in the pot?
Be patient, take the big scores from your hands that play well in multi-way pots.

[/ QUOTE ]Grandgnu - Depends on your opponents, of course, but after just a short time, players who are much tighter than the norm don't get much action in live games.

Maybe it's different on-line. In a brick and mortar casino, that ultra tighter than thou stuff works when you first sit down against unknown players, and it often works in tournaments, especially in the opening stages, but at the $4/$8 level, live Omaha-8 ring games in my local casino tend to have a number of seasoned Omaha-8 denizons who are playing the other players as much as their own starting hands.

Every time I go to the local casino I see some of the same faces playing Omaha-8. Some of them must be there playing Omaha-8 almost all the time!

Plus after your initial exposure to the game, it's as boring as watching paint dry to play Omaha-8 ultra tightly.

I'm not saying you shouldn't play tightly - but if you play often enough and long enough to become known to your opponents, you can carry tight play too far.

I guess it depends on how badly your opponents play. I'll agree that some of them play very badly.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
Every time I go to the casino I see some of the same faces playing Omaha-8. I mean, some of them must be there playing Omaha-8 almost all the time!

Plus after your initial exposure to the game, it's as boring as watching paint dry to play Omaha-8 ultra tightly.

I'm not saying you shouldn't play tightly - but if you play often enough and long enough to become known to your opponents, you can carry tight play too far.


[/ QUOTE ]

I understand what you're saying. I know that I encountered some grumpy old folks at the Foxwoods Omaha hi/lo game that were tight and one old coot would comment "he's got aces" whenever I raised (wasn't always the case, but I see your point about the opponents taking notice)

Currently my stats show me as "Loose/Good". I'm putting a bit more money into the pot voluntarily than what PokerTracker would list as a "Good Player", but it's not much.

I'm not concerned with it being exciting, just trying to make money, so I have the patience to fold as necessary. I'm not playing so tight that I only play A/2/3/4 or A/A/2/K type hands.

I definetely avoid middle cards unless I'm in the blind, and even then I'm careful not to get too attached.

As far as my opponents go, I play so many tables and at different times of the day, the only opponents I'm worried about would be players like myself, using PokerTracker and capturing statistics.

With a game like Omaha Hi/Lo, I figure it's harder for the weaker players to remember their foes. Primarily because in a game like Hold 'Em, they'll remember "oh, that's the jerk who called my all-in with J/J and busted my A/Q" or whatever. But if they have to remember "oh, I had 4/5/6/7 doubled suited and he had A/A/3/K and beat me" it's less likely.

And, since I try to play against weaker players, I'm not too worried about my play being predictible. I make steals when I feel the situation is right. For the most part, I value bet and make my profits that way. Most opponents aren't concerned with your play or your hand, just their own. That's why this game is so profitable.