Give me a turn line - Page 2

Zeatrix · #11 06-09-2006, 06:22 AM

Yeah, three-betting with KJo oop seems a little too aggressive. A call seems reasonable too me...

Rudis · #12 06-09-2006, 06:55 AM

With that ultradrawheavy turncard it is impossible for villain to fold any kind of hand for a raise. He might fold A high, but his line does not in any way tell us A high.
Unless an A K or possibly a J fell on the river I wouldn't fold 22.

MATT111 · #13 06-09-2006, 07:40 AM

Why are so many posters saying we do not fold a better hand: I think 22-44,66, maybe 88-99 + some Axs fold here frequently. It seems like a good spot to me to do this.

What about preflop? I think we are better off calling as 3-betting puts us in a tough spot almost always if we do not hit.

spiff21 · #14 06-09-2006, 08:01 AM

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i like check calling here because i doubt that you're going to fold out a better hand, plus its very likely that you have 14 outs, so you dont want to be paying 3BB to see the river,

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I don't think he will 3-bet a c/r that often. Even if he 3-bets and we have 14 outs the play is almost breakeven if we get 1 one more bet from him on the river.
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also if you do hit and he's aggro enough, the call line allows you to cr the river

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If he has a pair of tens or lower he will likely check behind on the river if it comes J,K or A. He might also fold if I lead into him.

Think the best card I'll have a chance to c/r is a 9.

spiff21 · #15 06-09-2006, 08:06 AM

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What about preflop? I think we are better off calling as 3-betting puts us in a tough spot almost always if we do not hit.

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I never call preflop if I have a chance to knock BB out and get the pot heads up vs somebody who knows where the fold button is.

In general, calling a raise preflop with 4 players at the table seems weak to me. Especially with this hand.

spiff21 · #16 06-09-2006, 08:14 AM

How about leading the turn?

If he percieves me as a tight solid player, and I lead the turn he might fold some holdings, no?

If he calls my turn bet and the river blanks, is it worth it to fire again? Pot is laying 7.5:1. Consider his pretty low went to showdown of 32%.

spiff21 · #17 06-09-2006, 08:25 AM

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I just check/call, check/fold river UI. You're not gonna fold a better hand often enough by check/raising this turn.

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How did you come to this conclusion?

I might have 14 outs. I need 2.29:1 to make a call profitable in this situation.

If I c/r pot is laying me immediate odds of 3.25:1.

If he calls my c/r my play is still profitable, or am I wrong?

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do this math again but for a massive pot on the turn when you have a 2-outer.

what this math is saying is that at some pot size, it is correct to check raise the turn with a 2-outer because you'll be getting the "immediate odds on the c/r."

even if this were correct in some way, it would still be wrong because you dont have 14 outs.

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Ok, I suck at setting up math problems in poker.

I know I left out some data though.

Anyways, for me it is too much work and too little gain to set up this math problem properly. I'm just not up for it [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

kiddo · #18 06-09-2006, 08:54 AM

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Why not checkraise the turn and find out? Since the hero has a calling hand anyways, were only investing one more bet to see if we can take down this pot. With the Queen being an overcard to the board, it is somewhat of a scare card, and given that action it makes prefect logical sense that this card couldve improved the hero, and were against a guy that can make a decent fold, and this villain probably has a very wide flop raising range much of which is not gonna like this turn checkraise. All these factors point to a turn checkraise for me.

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I would think that the problem is that if u are prepared to checkraise a draw on turn he is prepared to call u down very lightly so u shoulnt try a checkraise beause a checkraise will not fold more hands then a turndonkbet. But if u though what I just said was true u would stop checkraising a draw on turn and then - suddenly - u should start to do it because it will make him fold more hands then if u donk. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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The OP said it was weak to only call in SB against a UTG raise 4handed. I dont think this is true. It depends on what hands u are coldcalling with, who is raising and who is in the BB.

milesdyson · #19 06-09-2006, 12:03 PM

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I don't think he will 3-bet a c/r that often. Even if he 3-bets and we have 14 outs the play is almost breakeven if we get 1 one more bet from him on the river.

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no. if this happens, then the highly superior play is check calling the turn.

you're using the initial size of the pot to justify a line. it isnt right.

i think check raising here is probably a fine play but it has nothing to do with the difference the pot odds you're "laying yourself" and the odds your draw will come in.

larger pot size = less often he has to fold for it to be +ev
larger # of outs = less the play costs because of your pot equity on the turn

ILOVEPOKER929 · #20 06-09-2006, 11:00 PM

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Why not checkraise the turn and find out? Since the hero has a calling hand anyways, were only investing one more bet to see if we can take down this pot. With the Queen being an overcard to the board, it is somewhat of a scare card, and given that action it makes prefect logical sense that this card couldve improved the hero, and were against a guy that can make a decent fold, and this villain probably has a very wide flop raising range much of which is not gonna like this turn checkraise. All these factors point to a turn checkraise for me.

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I would think that the problem is that if u are prepared to checkraise a draw on turn he is prepared to call u down very lightly so u shoulnt try a checkraise beause a checkraise will not fold more hands then a turndonkbet. But if u though what I just said was true u would stop checkraising a draw on turn and then - suddenly - u should start to do it because it will make him fold more hands then if u donk. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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The OP said it was weak to only call in SB against a UTG raise 4handed. I dont think this is true. It depends on what hands u are coldcalling with, who is raising and who is in the BB.

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I can understand the debate between checkraising the turn or check/calling. Obviously this is an inherently close decision becuz not only does the right play depend on a number of variables it also depends on how one views those variables. But there shouldnt be a debate preflop. This is an auto 3bet for me, and its not close IMO.