Lame move?

[RR]

Only $100s should play in no limit (any poker game as far as I am concerened but it is more important in NL); however, he bet the $20s and the action was accepted. After the winner (or likely winner) is determined it is too late to decide that the bills don't play.

[Rottersod]

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Only $100s should play in no limit (any poker game as far as I am concerened but it is more important in NL); however, he bet the $20s and the action was accepted. After the winner (or likely winner) is determined it is too late to decide that the bills don't play.

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This is exactly the kind of crap I can't stand: people making up their own rules when it suits them. If the casino had a no money plays rules then that's it. No money plays. He can push in $10,000 and get called but it doesn't matter. Both players were trying to get an edge. The old guy who knew that money doesn't play yet pushed it in anyways and the KK who didn't say anything about that until the hands were flipped up and he saw he was behind. This is a classic case of why casinos have rules and why the Floor should simply enforce them and not adjust them to specific situations.

And, to answer the OP, the dealer should be reprimanded for not telling the old guy to take the money off the table and for not telling him that money doesn't play when he pushed it in.

[terp]

rottersod is dead on. both players in the hand were manipulating the rules for their own advantage.

[RR]

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Only $100s should play in no limit (any poker game as far as I am concerened but it is more important in NL); however, he bet the $20s and the action was accepted. After the winner (or likely winner) is determined it is too late to decide that the bills don't play.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly the kind of crap I can't stand: people making up their own rules when it suits them. If the casino had a no money plays rules then that's it. No money plays. He can push in $10,000 and get called but it doesn't matter. Both players were trying to get an edge. The old guy who knew that money doesn't play yet pushed it in anyways and the KK who didn't say anything about that until the hands were flipped up and he saw he was behind. This is a classic case of why casinos have rules and why the Floor should simply enforce them and not adjust them to specific situations.

And, to answer the OP, the dealer should be reprimanded for not telling the old guy to take the money off the table and for not telling him that money doesn't play when he pushed it in.

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Rules are enforced to protect the integrity of the game. The reason twenties don't play (generally) is there is no way to tell the denomination when they are in a pile. When a player offers action and a player acts on that offer the rule is the action stands. This isn't making up a rule, this is how gamining irregularities are handled; the floor determines what is fair and rules in the interest of fairness. This is why the rules should be kept as an internal document, there will always be players that have no real understanding of the rules wanting to play lawyer. A poker table is neither a court of law nor a sporting field; poker rules and procedures are written as a directive as to what should be done; however, the moment an irregularity occurs (once someone attempts to bet money that isn't supposed to be on the table) the rule is to call the floor so he can use his judgment to decide what is fair. The rules provide that twenties won't be on the table; once they are on the table the rules have been broken and it is time for an arbiter to decide what to do (there is no rule to cover what happens if someone bets some twenties; the rule is they shouldn't be there).

[Rottersod]

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Only $100s should play in no limit (any poker game as far as I am concerened but it is more important in NL); however, he bet the $20s and the action was accepted. After the winner (or likely winner) is determined it is too late to decide that the bills don't play.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly the kind of crap I can't stand: people making up their own rules when it suits them. If the casino had a no money plays rules then that's it. No money plays. He can push in $10,000 and get called but it doesn't matter. Both players were trying to get an edge. The old guy who knew that money doesn't play yet pushed it in anyways and the KK who didn't say anything about that until the hands were flipped up and he saw he was behind. This is a classic case of why casinos have rules and why the Floor should simply enforce them and not adjust them to specific situations.

And, to answer the OP, the dealer should be reprimanded for not telling the old guy to take the money off the table and for not telling him that money doesn't play when he pushed it in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rules are enforced to protect the integrity of the game. The reason twenties don't play (generally) is there is no way to tell the denomination when they are in a pile. When a player offers action and a player acts on that offer the rule is the action stands. This isn't making up a rule, this is how gamining irregularities are handled; the floor determines what is fair and rules in the interest of fairness. This is why the rules should be kept as an internal document, there will always be players that have no real understanding of the rules wanting to play lawyer. A poker table is neither a court of law nor a sporting field; poker rules and procedures are written as a directive as to what should be done; however, the moment an irregularity occurs (once someone attempts to bet money that isn't supposed to be on the table) the rule is to call the floor so he can use his judgment to decide what is fair. The rules provide that twenties won't be on the table; once they are on the table the rules have been broken and it is time for an arbiter to decide what to do (there is no rule to cover what happens if someone bets some twenties; the rule is they shouldn't be there).

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Are you just making things up as you go along? I've played live for 20+ years here at The Bike and when the rule is no money plays then that's the rule and the Floor doesn't get to decide that it isn't. Period. Simple as that. If you try to play money and the dealer somehow doesn't catch it the money does not play. Get it? DOES NOT PLAY. That's what protecting the integrity of the game is about. It's not about allowing angle shooters to have a chance based on the Floors decisions.

[chesspain]

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Rules are enforced to protect the integrity of the game. The reason twenties don't play (generally) is there is no way to tell the denomination when they are in a pile.

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O.K...so that's why twenties are allowed to play on the limit tables at FW--because there is never a question as to the amount of a bet/raise?

[RR]

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Only $100s should play in no limit (any poker game as far as I am concerened but it is more important in NL); however, he bet the $20s and the action was accepted. After the winner (or likely winner) is determined it is too late to decide that the bills don't play.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly the kind of crap I can't stand: people making up their own rules when it suits them. If the casino had a no money plays rules then that's it. No money plays. He can push in $10,000 and get called but it doesn't matter. Both players were trying to get an edge. The old guy who knew that money doesn't play yet pushed it in anyways and the KK who didn't say anything about that until the hands were flipped up and he saw he was behind. This is a classic case of why casinos have rules and why the Floor should simply enforce them and not adjust them to specific situations.

And, to answer the OP, the dealer should be reprimanded for not telling the old guy to take the money off the table and for not telling him that money doesn't play when he pushed it in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rules are enforced to protect the integrity of the game. The reason twenties don't play (generally) is there is no way to tell the denomination when they are in a pile. When a player offers action and a player acts on that offer the rule is the action stands. This isn't making up a rule, this is how gamining irregularities are handled; the floor determines what is fair and rules in the interest of fairness. This is why the rules should be kept as an internal document, there will always be players that have no real understanding of the rules wanting to play lawyer. A poker table is neither a court of law nor a sporting field; poker rules and procedures are written as a directive as to what should be done; however, the moment an irregularity occurs (once someone attempts to bet money that isn't supposed to be on the table) the rule is to call the floor so he can use his judgment to decide what is fair. The rules provide that twenties won't be on the table; once they are on the table the rules have been broken and it is time for an arbiter to decide what to do (there is no rule to cover what happens if someone bets some twenties; the rule is they shouldn't be there).

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Are you just making things up as you go along? I've played live for 20+ years here at The Bike and when the rule is no money plays then that's the rule and the Floor doesn't get to decide that it isn't. Period. Simple as that. If you try to play money and the dealer somehow doesn't catch it the money does not play. Get it? DOES NOT PLAY. That's what protecting the integrity of the game is about. It's not about allowing angle shooters to have a chance based on the Floors decisions.

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Under you system how long do you have to ask for a refund if they make a mistake and allow money to play? 10 seconds? next down? next day? next year?

The rule is money doesn't play. But it is beyond that; eveyone missed it and now the money is in the center of the table. At what point can a palyer take their moeny back that wasn't suppsoed to play? When they get it out they are supposed to either buy chips or put it away, but they didn't. Now they bet it and it is in the center? Is this too late to ask for it back? The dealer has pushed the pot, is this too late? The player hias stacked the pot and put away the moeny, is this too late? Can he chase the guy down the 710 to his house and say "hey, cash doesn't paly, give it back"

As far as your twenty years of playing it is not at all uncommon to find players that have been playing for decades that think they know it all that really have no true understanding of the rules.

[AKQJ10]

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O.K...so that's why twenties are allowed to play on the limit tables at FW--because there is never a question as to the amount of a bet/raise?

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Yes, presumably it's that and the fact that stack size really doesn't matter in limit until a player gets very close to all-in. I've seen opponents sit there with, say, five twenties and three yellow $2 chips in a $4/8 game. Once they placed the twenty out to represent their call (usually), the dealer would change it out. But the integrity of the game wasn't threatened because everyone knew they had enough to cover the hand without an extraordinary number of capped rounds.

[Banks2334]

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Are you just making things up as you go along? I've played live for 20+ years here at The Bike

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And Randy has experience dealing with these issues from the floor side. He is one of the more respected posters around here dealing with these types of problems. You may want to know who you are talking to before getting on your soap box.

[youtalkfunny]

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...when the rule is no money plays then that's the rule and the Floor doesn't get to decide that it isn't. Period. Simple as that. If you try to play money and the dealer somehow doesn't catch it the money does not play. Get it? DOES NOT PLAY.

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If that's how you feel, let me run this example by you, which actually happened:

$30-60 limit. Two players have full houses, and put about fifteen bets in on the turn and river.

At the showdown, the loser tells the dealer, "Don't push that pot, call the floor."

The floor is called. The loser says that all of the turn and river bets have to be refunded, because the winner reached into his pocket and put cash on the table at that time.

The dealer didn't see him do this. The dealer said he was pulling a ton of bets into the middle, and obviously did not have his eyes on the winner at all times. The dealer confirmed that the winner started betting cash instead of chips on the turn. When no one objected, he presumed the money was there the whole time, and he just hadn't noticed it.

So the loser just kept betting and betting and betting, figuring that he'd either win a huge pot, or he'd shoot an angle to get his money back.

The loser KNEW that money should not be in play, but he faded it any way. The loser saw the man put the cash on the table, but didn't speak up about it until *after* there had SUBSTANTIAL action. He didn't say a word until *after* the showdown.

What, in your opinion, should the floor do in this case?
Should the loser get a free shot at that money?

If this were a poll, these would be your choices:

A. You can't back up the action after all this betting, much less after the showdown.

B. Thieving scumbag angle shooters should be allowed to use technicalities to their benefit.

What's your choice, A or B?