QQ against massive donk - Page 2

Kimpan · #11 07-24-2007, 11:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
OOP I usually just lead out here and give up if he calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

well this seems kinda bad when he never folds to a cbet and most def will fire later on.

wuwei · #12 07-24-2007, 11:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Against this type of maniacs if you cbet the flop you have to be prepared to bet the turn (assuming the turn card was relatively safe) as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. Against a villain who:

a. Always calls a c-bet
b. Will always bet the turn if you check it to him

How can we extract the most value? If he calls everything on flop, bets everything on turn, then bet flop and ck/cl turn is the best line (If I'd seen Kimpan's followup, I would have posted that the first time). Firing again on the turn gets him to call with all the stuff that beats us and fold a lot of the crap that does not...

Oct0puz · #13 07-24-2007, 11:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OOP I usually just lead out here and give up if he calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

well this seems kinda bad when he never folds to a cbet and most def will fire later on.

[/ QUOTE ]

I missed that. I def. lead the turn again.

blackize · #14 07-24-2007, 11:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]

OOP I usually just lead out here and give up if he calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so bad against someone who never folds to cbets.

Wuwei has it right. Try to get to showdown. Bet flop and call down if you think he's firing at you with any two on the turn when checked to.

luckbox666 · #15 07-24-2007, 12:00 PM

I dislike c/c down. I think you should cbet this flop to gain control for at least one street. I call down after that rather safely.

John49 · #16 07-24-2007, 12:07 PM

You should cbet, not only b/c you're prolly ahead, so it would be a value bet somewhat (b/c you said he would prolly call), but also to find out where you are a bit. For instance, if he raised you large, you would be given a chance to reassess.

However, how you played is not entirely bad if you had a feel.

Fousekis · #17 07-24-2007, 12:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Against this type of maniacs if you cbet the flop you have to be prepared to bet the turn (assuming the turn card was relatively safe) as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. Against a villain who:

a. Always calls a c-bet
b. Will always bet the turn if you check it to him

How can we extract the most value? If he calls everything on flop, bets everything on turn, then bet flop and ck/cl turn is the best line (If I'd seen Kimpan's followup, I would have posted that the first time). Firing again on the turn gets him to call with all the stuff that beats us and fold a lot of the crap that does not...

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure it does, but that's the problem with playing vs maniacs right?

What are the alternatives?

If you check the flop you show weakness, so he bets flop and turn. All you have achieved is lose the PFR momentum and you are paying just as much as it would have cost you to fire two barrels.

If you bet the flop and check the turn it makes it look like you just cbet on a flop that missed you so he bets. Again, you have gained no information, you have shown weakness and you have spent just as much money to call the turn as it would have cost you to cbet and bet.

So there are only two real options, either give up on the hand on the flop or be prepared to cbet and bet again. You can always go for a C/R on the flop, but that makes your hand look a bit like a bluff.

I like playing this hand like I'd play it if I had AK, which is bet flop and bet turn. If he is still with me on the river I give my QQ up.

blackize · #18 07-24-2007, 01:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Again, you have gained no information, you have shown weakness and you have spent just as much money to call the turn as it would have cost you to cbet and bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you want information? He is betting 100% of his range on the turn.

If someone calls too much, value bet weaker holdings. That is why we're betting the flop.

If someone always bets when you check, call them down light.

This guy is trying to give you money. Calling is the best way to take it.

cassette · #19 07-24-2007, 01:53 PM

c-bet, c/c, c/c if you like money.

Kimpan · #20 07-24-2007, 03:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
c-bet, c/c, c/c if you like money.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I knew he would bet 3 streets with air this would be the best line for sure. I'm not sure of this here though, calling 3 streets on 2nd pair is scary.. Don't know if I like it. Is it bad to just give up and wait for a better situation?