I hate this spot

[Analyst]

[ QUOTE ]
Live 40-80, the game was wonderful but all the fish left at the same time to spawn or something. Game has become terrible, is now 6-handed, and I'm sticking around in case some new fish show up when they call down the board, otherwise I plan to leave.

Decent player raises UTG(6-handed) and I call in the BB with JhTs

Flop is AsJd4s, we have middle pair but aren't doing too well against any sane range from villain. What is your plan for the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot depends on the villain's range here. A quick look at PokerStove shows it may not be as bad as you think:

107,910 games 0.005 secs 21,582,000 games/sec

Board: As Jd 4s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 41.603% 40.36% 01.24% 43552 1342.00 { JhTs }
Hand 1: 58.397% 57.15% 01.24% 61674 1342.00 { 77+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+ }

So, if you close your eyes and blindly c/c every street, you're getting 4.5:2.5, or 1.8:1 in a pot where you're only a 1.4:1 dog. If you add something like QJo and JTo to villain's mix it's a bit worse but you're still only 1.5:1.

Villain's range might be looser, in which case you're even better off; he might check behind, in which case you're paying less (and are more likely ahead). The fact that you will reevaluate based on action and the cards helps more, of course.

I think the flop is c/c or c/r; I'd probably do the former unless he could let go a better J to your raise (seems unlikely, though).

[bakku]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Live 40-80, the game was wonderful but all the fish left at the same time to spawn or something. Game has become terrible, is now 6-handed, and I'm sticking around in case some new fish show up when they call down the board, otherwise I plan to leave.

Decent player raises UTG(6-handed) and I call in the BB with JhTs

Flop is AsJd4s, we have middle pair but aren't doing too well against any sane range from villain. What is your plan for the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot depends on the villain's range here. A quick look at PokerStove shows it may not be as bad as you think:

107,910 games 0.005 secs 21,582,000 games/sec

Board: As Jd 4s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 41.603% 40.36% 01.24% 43552 1342.00 { JhTs }
Hand 1: 58.397% 57.15% 01.24% 61674 1342.00 { 77+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+ }

So, if you close your eyes and blindly c/c every street, you're getting 4.5:2.5, or 1.8:1 in a pot where you're only a 1.4:1 dog. If you add something like QJo and JTo to villain's mix it's a bit worse but you're still only 1.5:1.

Villain's range might be looser, in which case you're even better off; he might check behind, in which case you're paying less (and are more likely ahead). The fact that you will reevaluate based on action and the cards helps more, of course.

I think the flop is c/c or c/r; I'd probably do the former unless he could let go a better J to your raise (seems unlikely, though).

[/ QUOTE ]

as you check/call down, villain's range of hands becomes smaller and smaller so with each bet that goes into the pot your odds of winning become worse and worse. so while you're getting 1.8:1 to call down you're not going to be a 1.4:1 dog.

anyway, i don't like a flop c/r as a better hand almost never folds before the river and worse hands like pocket pairs only have two outs and often aren't calling down. but really, i'd just fold preflop.

[n.s.]

[ QUOTE ]
but really, i'd just fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my first thought as well.

[W. Deranged]

I think anything but check-calling this flop (barring a super-nit read on opponent) is a bust.

I don't see why check-call, check-call, check-tankforanhourand makeadecision isn't right here.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
I think anything but check-calling this flop (barring a super-nit read on opponent) is a bust.

I don't see why check-call, check-call, check-tankforanhourand makeadecision isn't right here.

[/ QUOTE ]

because it is right.

[Coelacanth]

Add one more vote for check-call flop. In most cases I'm calling this one all the way down unimproved. I might fold a K/Q/spade river. K/Q because it hits a good portion of the range you're ahead of on the flop, and the spade because most players are less likely to bet river without an ace or better when the spade gets there. Obviously at least the spade part is player dependent and image dependent on how often you c/r draws on the flop.

I wouldn't mind donking blank turns if you can fold comfortably to a raise and have a reasonable chance of folding 7 out hands (over + gutshot). I don't do this myself often, but it's worth considering.

I've got no problem calling preflop against all but the tightest players.

[elena_elphie]

I did check-call the flop, whenever I check call down against decent players I feel like a calling station /fish, so I'm trying to get over that. There are spots where it is clearly the right thing to do, and check-calling some marginal hands on the flop also balances sometimes chk-call, chk-raising.

[elena_elphie]

Continuing on, I decide c/f and c/r are both incorrect, therefore I c/c.

Turn is 2s, putting the spade flush on the board, we have "improved", giving us a mediocre one card flush draw to the Ts to go with our middle pair. We may have 13 outs, and we may be drawing dead, we may be ahead of a small pair or gutshot(with or without spade draw). What is your plan now?

[BigBadBabar]

c/c c/c and see river

[J.A.Sucker]

[ QUOTE ]
Continuing on, I decide c/f and c/r are both incorrect, therefore I c/c.

Turn is 2s, putting the spade flush on the board, we have "improved", giving us a mediocre one card flush draw to the Ts to go with our middle pair. We may have 13 outs, and we may be drawing dead, we may be ahead of a small pair or gutshot(with or without spade draw). What is your plan now?

[/ QUOTE ]

As long as you don't fold, all of your options are good here on the turn (BTW, your flop line was the correct one). You should decide how your opponent will react if you spring to life and bet out - for many players, this is the best idea, and is probably my preferred play. Call a raise, of course. This is the line you should take against the toughest players, in general.

You can also check with the intention of raising. The risk you run is that the hand gets checked through, which will happen if your opponent has a weak hand with a spade (even just the bare Ks). Of course, many opponents will try to fire off a bet here to win the pot, so you might get them stuck with a check raise. The more aggressive the player, the better this bet is.

If your opponent is really tight and almost certainly has the A here, checking and calling is correct (some guys will only fire on the turn with an A or better, which lets you know where you stand in the hand). In this case, you should probably fire out on the river if you improve.