What to do with Dealers that don't enforce rules?

[PantsOnFire]

Wow, I haven't had a reaction to a post of mine like that for a while. You guys kinda just woke me up.

I'll slough off the dealer aspect and say, yes most dealers should run their table properly. However, I have seen games where a group of buddies are having fun, feeding the dealer well and there is general good air around the table. And I'm sure if some nit complained the dealer would fix it and the air around the table would change. But that's neither here nor there.

I am really curious about how you guys figure you are being put at some disadvantage here? Would you just try to get the proper procedures in place because they are rules or are you feeling cheated or otherwise -EV?

Are you saying you can't exploit this situation?

[skin city]

[ QUOTE ]

I am really curious about how you guys figure you are being put at some disadvantage here? Would you just try to get the proper procedures in place because they are rules or are you feeling cheated or otherwise -EV?

Are you saying you can't exploit this situation?

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, brainiac, bare with me here: lets say you have AA in the BB and the cutoff seat has...oh i dont know, 99. still with me?
EP player raises the pot and one guys mucks his hand face up and shows K-9, then two players later, another player mucks face up and shows 4-9.
now the guy with the 9-9 knows he has no outs to improve on his hand. so he wisely mucks also. back around to you and you re-raise and the original raiser folds= no action
you just got nothing for your monster because a couple of idiots didnt fallow the rules!
get it yet?

[mingorama]

I had assumed, once I had said something to one of the guys, that the Dealer would back me up and at least reinforce the rules, but that didn't happen. I didn't want to wait until I was involved in a hand where this would affect action (whether good or bad for me), as speaking up at that time could give information about my hand. I guess if it happens again I'll speak up immediately, and change tables if the Dealer doesn't enforce the rules.

[mingorama]

To respond to Pants on Fire's last post: in this scenario, the two guys doing it are sitting across from each other, and are obviously friends. I would imagine they have a stronger read on each other's holdings than anyone else at the table. So if Player 1 senses that player 2 is on a club draw, for example, but is holding one of those cards, he mucks face up and lets Player 2 know that he has one less out. This is a VERY minor example, but I would think that the opportunity to take advantage and "exploit" this play is far outweighed by the benefit these two players are getting from the extra information, especially if they are selectively mucking face up.

[PantsOnFire]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I am really curious about how you guys figure you are being put at some disadvantage here? Would you just try to get the proper procedures in place because they are rules or are you feeling cheated or otherwise -EV?

Are you saying you can't exploit this situation?

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, brainiac, bare with me here: lets say you have AA in the BB and the cutoff seat has...oh i dont know, 99. still with me?
EP player raises the pot and one guys mucks his hand face up and shows K-9, then two players later, another player mucks face up and shows 4-9.
now the guy with the 9-9 knows he has no outs to improve on his hand. so he wisely mucks also. back around to you and you re-raise and the original raiser folds= no action
you just got nothing for your monster because a couple of idiots didnt fallow the rules!
get it yet?

[/ QUOTE ]
That's a nice selective example but unfortunately it proves nothing because you could be the guy with 99. It applies equally.

However, if you are a better player than these guys, you can use that information more effectively. Not to mention the fact that you are seeing what cards these guys are starting with, how they are playing their hands and when they are folding.

[skin city]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I am really curious about how you guys figure you are being put at some disadvantage here? Would you just try to get the proper procedures in place because they are rules or are you feeling cheated or otherwise -EV?

Are you saying you can't exploit this situation?

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, brainiac, bare with me here: lets say you have AA in the BB and the cutoff seat has...oh i dont know, 99. still with me?
EP player raises the pot and one guys mucks his hand face up and shows K-9, then two players later, another player mucks face up and shows 4-9.
now the guy with the 9-9 knows he has no outs to improve on his hand. so he wisely mucks also. back around to you and you re-raise and the original raiser folds= no action
you just got nothing for your monster because a couple of idiots didnt fallow the rules!
get it yet?

[/ QUOTE ]
That's a nice selective example but unfortunately it proves nothing because you could be the guy with 99. It applies equally.

However, if you are a better player than these guys, you can use that information more effectively. Not to mention the fact that you are seeing what cards these guys are starting with, how they are playing their hands and when they are folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

CONGRATULATIONS!!you, sir, are OFFICIALLY invited to my home game! every tuesday night at 7:00pm Vegas time....bring cash

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I am really curious about how you guys figure you are being put at some disadvantage here? Would you just try to get the proper procedures in place because they are rules or are you feeling cheated or otherwise -EV?

Are you saying you can't exploit this situation?

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, brainiac, bare with me here: lets say you have AA in the BB and the cutoff seat has...oh i dont know, 99. still with me?
EP player raises the pot and one guys mucks his hand face up and shows K-9, then two players later, another player mucks face up and shows 4-9.
now the guy with the 9-9 knows he has no outs to improve on his hand. so he wisely mucks also. back around to you and you re-raise and the original raiser folds= no action
you just got nothing for your monster because a couple of idiots didnt fallow the rules!
get it yet?

[/ QUOTE ]
That's a nice selective example but unfortunately it proves nothing because you could be the guy with 99. It applies equally.

However, if you are a better player than these guys, you can use that information more effectively. Not to mention the fact that you are seeing what cards these guys are starting with, how they are playing their hands and when they are folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

CONGRATULATIONS!!you, sir, are OFFICIALLY invited to my home game! every tuesday night at 7:00pm Vegas time....bring cash

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really agree with his general point (that this type of stuff is normal and should be ignored) but you are being ridiculous here, and you are the one who is wrong. Your specific example with the 9's and the AA was a very good example of POF's point, and terrible support for your own. You are just as likely to have the 99 as the AA, and situations that are very similar to that (but more subtle) will benefit a thinking player far more than an average donkey. I don't play at games where I'm not the 'thinking player,' so this benefits me more than anyone else.

Feel free to condescendingly invite me to your homegame, now, I might take you up on it.

[pfapfap]

Next time, go through the dealer. In a lot of California rooms, rules are more of a vague guideline to be pointed at and grunted about from time to time, so you need to be flexible. When I'm in the box I try to prevent this, but there's not really anything that can be done, and I can't imagine the floor would kick someone out for this unless s/he became overly belligerent.

The dealer is there to protect the game, and you should ask the dealer to take care of the situation. The people doing this don't give two craps about you, as you discovered.

[CincyLady]

[ QUOTE ]
Next time, go through the dealer. In a lot of California rooms, rules are more of a vague guideline to be pointed at and grunted about from time to time, so you need to be flexible. When I'm in the box I try to prevent this, but there's not really anything that can be done, and I can't imagine the floor would kick someone out for this unless s/he became overly belligerent.



[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I hate playing against Californians, because they always seem to be like Jamie Gold types, flashing their aces, folding cards face up, telling what their hand is in a middle of a hand, and acting like they are God's gift to poker.

I can't say for sure that all poker players from California are like that, but most I've encountered are.

To the OP, if these two want to play like that, tell them to get a private table, then they can play anyway they want to.

[djoyce003]

In general this isn't a big deal. Things that might make it a big deal to me is if it's the same guy doing it over and over, and he's consistently doing it after I act, but before his buddy acts. Example, i'm in the 1, Guy A is in the 2, and guy b is somewhere behind that. I raise, guy A has something marginal and waits, guy B mucks something way out of turn face up, his buddy looks at it, then folds when maybe he would have called with 2 suited cards, but his buddy folded that same suit as well.

If they are both doing it though, then i'm unfavorably impacted by half, but then favorably impacted by the other half.

So in a nutshell, if they are both folding out of turn face up, it's ok, if only one is doing it, and the one benefitting is doing so AFTER i act, then I would complain. Also if it's in response to raises, etc and obviously looks like collusion i'd say something as mentioned in my example above.