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#11
08-15-2006, 04:50 PM
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Re: l1 post flop draw hand ($55reg)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Lead the flop. Makes the hand easier to play, and you harder to play against. Irieguy [/ QUOTE ] Yikes... I think this is a huge spew. [/ QUOTE ] I have to agree. Leading can only be correct if we can expect to have a reasonable amount of fold equity, and to be perfectly frank I feel as if we have essentially none on a two-tone board with face cards. This flop hits all kinds of hands that will bet a turn if checked to. We're OOP with a very marginal draw. To those who argue something along the lines metagame and what certain plays alow you to do in the future, I'm interested in how important you really think metagame is. Theoretically, given the opportunity to play longer with players or play with them repeatedly, the ability to lead a variety of hands will extract extra value from your sets, but this sort of forward thinking assumes that (a) your opponents are observant and (b) that you'll have other opportunities to capitalize on an image you've developed. Given the size of the SNG player pool and the nature of the one table SNG as being short-lived, it seems to me that metagame should be considered only minimally. 
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#12
08-15-2006, 05:38 PM
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Re: l1 post flop draw hand ($55reg)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Lead the flop. Makes the hand easier to play, and you harder to play against. Irieguy [/ QUOTE ] Yikes... I think this is a huge spew. I would get into why, but its why no one thought of it in the first place... [/ QUOTE ] We wanna know why!! (or at least I do) What Irie talks about in his follow seems to me to be highly valuable for NL cash but marginal for STT poker....unless this leading into the flop business will decrease the amount of times I get sucked out on elsewhere in the tournament with like the virtual nuts, [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]. Seriously though....I still think this is a -EV play and the part of the $ going into the pot here you don't ever get back will not be recouped by possibly creating or changing your image. I will give this hand more thought as I figured my flop line was clearly good. Also, I want more info on how players would play the turn and possible river!! AnthonyV? Devinlake? B33nz (in 3 days)? Yugoslav
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#13
08-15-2006, 05:50 PM
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Re: l1 post flop draw hand ($55reg)
i just give it up without much thought.
mainly cuz I'm not sure that hitting either of my draws is all that profitable (counting the times I'm against better hands, along with the times that my outs hit and no one pays me off). I bet into similar flops alot with a pretty wide range, but put in this situation i probably wouldn't. I think it's cuz the flush is my only out, and it feels pretty thin all by itself vs 4 opps. Now if the J were a 8 (or even a 6) I might actually fire here more often than not.
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#15
08-15-2006, 08:11 PM
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Re: l1 post flop draw hand ($55reg)
[ QUOTE ]
You got my $20? Oh, and you wanna have nightmares?  all your chips are belong to us! [/ QUOTE ] u talkin to me? $20? i musta been drunk... did you buy me dinner? did it get you anywhere afterwards? i do remember waking up half-naked in a strange hotel room surrounded by a pile of money, drugs, and women in bikini bottoms sitting on the couch blowing bubbles at me. All that and I only owe you $20? And man, that picture! How'd I get all those chips?
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#16
08-15-2006, 08:43 PM
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Re: l1 post flop draw hand ($55reg)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] You got my $20? Oh, and you wanna have nightmares? all your chips are belong to us! [/ QUOTE ] u talkin to me? $20? i musta been drunk... did you buy me dinner? did it get you anywhere afterwards? i do remember waking up half-naked in a strange hotel room surrounded by a pile of money, drugs, and women in bikini bottoms sitting on the couch blowing bubbles at me. All that and I only owe you $20? And man, that picture! How'd I get all those chips? [/ QUOTE ] I guess you weren't there, Cleinen and maybe slim were that day. That is at the MGM at 1/2 NL where you'll recall the max buyin is $200. Dude did that in about 10 hours, like 9k.
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#17
08-15-2006, 10:32 PM
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Re: l1 post flop draw hand ($55reg)
[ QUOTE ]
If any queen will raise me off the hand, that's ok with me. I also don't mind all of the opponents behind because there aren't a lot of hand types that are calling or playing back at me here. [/ QUOTE ] I have to disagree with the second part. At the $55s, a board like this can see calls from Qs, Js, flush draws, straight draws, or pocket pairs. We can also get raised by a Q, but that's the easy part to handle. It's harder to deal with getting called because our position is poor for the turn. [ QUOTE ] Also, I want more info on how players would play the turn and possible river!! Yugoslav [/ QUOTE ] I find it hard to believe that we're drawing dead based on the action, so I'm calling getting 4:1. We have 15 outs, but after waving my hands around and thinking about a few scenarios, I imagine we have around 8 or 9 outs. SB looks like he could be drawing, so perhaps 2 or more of our flush outs are no good. One of these foolios might have a Q, so maybe our straight outs are tainted by KQ or something. Blah blah blah, I'll say 8.5 outs. I would play the river passively. I don't see a situation where I would raise a bet from the SB, whatever we hit. Hell, if the SB wakes up pots the river, I might fold anything. Durron's plan sounds fine, although I might modify it depending on my read of MP. If I would struggle with responding to a pottish bet from MP after checking the river, I would bet fold. If not, then check call everything.
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#18
08-16-2006, 12:47 AM
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Re: l1 post flop draw hand ($55reg)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Lead the flop. Makes the hand easier to play, and you harder to play against. Irieguy [/ QUOTE ] Yikes... I think this is a huge spew. I would get into why, but its why no one thought of it in the first place... [/ QUOTE ] We wanna know why!! (or at least I do) What Irie talks about in his follow seems to me to be highly valuable for NL cash but marginal for STT poker....unless this leading into the flop business will decrease the amount of times I get sucked out on elsewhere in the tournament with like the virtual nuts, [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]. Seriously though....I still think this is a -EV play and the part of the $ going into the pot here you don't ever get back will not be recouped by possibly creating or changing your image. I will give this hand more thought as I figured my flop line was clearly good. Also, I want more info on how players would play the turn and possible river!! AnthonyV? Devinlake? B33nz (in 3 days)? Yugoslav [/ QUOTE ] The Portuguee did a pretty good job explaining it. Our hand sucks. I wouldn't lead here for the same reasons I wouldn't lead 32o... we don't have a hand or any reason to believe we have nearly enough fold equity to get all FOUR players to fold. We could be drawing dead already, have huge reverse implied odds, and will get called like 99% of the time while getting to see only one card a lot. The metagame argument wouldn't carry enough weight in cash games IMO, let alone in sngs.
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#19
08-16-2006, 05:01 AM
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Re: l1 post flop draw hand ($55reg)
[ QUOTE ]
Lead the flop. Makes the hand easier to play, and you harder to play against. Irieguy [/ QUOTE ] i would definitely not do this. as played, i'd call the turn and proceed cautiously.
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#20
08-16-2006, 05:21 AM
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Re: l1 post flop draw hand ($55reg)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Lead the flop. Makes the hand easier to play, and you harder to play against. Irieguy [/ QUOTE ] i would definitely not do this. as played, i'd call the turn and proceed cautiously. [/ QUOTE ] Quoted for truth. Ryan
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