$10/180 JJ flops an overpair and check/folds

[GOONERCAM]

Ok appreciate ur cant define preflop given stack sizes.But this now works the other way. U dont call for set value when u and the other guy dont have big stacks because the equity from when u hit and he doubles up is negative 2 the times u miss and fold. U have called 1/6th of ur stack to hit a miracle jack. 52-18=34 unseen cards.2/34 are jacks. Therefore the 3.3-1 odds are only appealing enuf if u both have large stacks which u dont. If u disagree gr8 because that is the point of this forum. Lets hear some different opinions.Hope this helps.

[Jbrochu]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok appreciate ur cant define preflop given stack sizes.But this now works the other way. U dont call for set value when u and the other guy dont have big stacks because the equity from when u hit and he doubles up is negative 2 the times u miss and fold. U have called 1/6th of ur stack to hit a miracle jack. 52-18=34 unseen cards.2/34 are jacks. Therefore the 3.3-1 odds are only appealing enuf if u both have large stacks which u dont. If u disagree gr8 because that is the point of this forum. Lets hear some different opinions.Hope this helps.

[/ QUOTE ]


Good points and I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you regarding why not fold preflop if I'm going to play so weak postflop. And as played I'm not sure at all I didn't make a mistake postflop especially considering his PT numbers.

However, 3.3-to-1 is almost half the direct odds required to try and flop a set. Even though my stack isn't that deep and I would like better implied odds I'm fairly confident he has a big pair and I'll double through him if I manage to flop the set.

There is also some chance I can get to a cheap showdown or otherwise win the hand on the turn or river.

Right or wrong, this was my thought process on the hand as played. I'm not trying to be dismissive of your feedback just trying to share my thinking.

[GOONERCAM]

Look u r not being dismissive u r defending ur play which is absolutely fine. Like i said im open for debate and this is how evry1 gets better at the game. I can understand y u played, how u did, im sure many of us may have done the same. It is easier to critique when u r not involved in the hand, so as far as im concerned ur play wasnt all that bad im just trying to give some advice. Jacks are notoriously the hardest hand to play in NL HOLD/EM.

[GOONERCAM]

BY the way im only 15 so please go easy on me.

[Fiksdal]

Cooner, your math is off. We have fine odds to make a set here. Implied odds are huge. We only called 10% of our stack after his 3-bet, and there is tons of money in the pot already.

[GOONERCAM]

The point is this is all well and good but only if we have deep stacks. From the start of the hand to the flop we have committed 1/6 th of our stack. (3205/576) The pot contains 1300 on the flop and we have 2629 lft.(ie twice the pot) So how on earth do we have huge implied odds. If you disagree then u disagree with DOYLE BRUNSON. (LOL)

[Fiksdal]

[ QUOTE ]

The point is this is all well and good but only if we have deep stacks. From the start of the hand to the flop we have committed 1/6 th of our stack. (3205/576) The pot contains 1300 on the flop and we have 2629 lft.(ie twice the pot) So how on earth do we have huge implied odds. If you disagree then u disagree with DOYLE BRUNSON. (LOL)


[/ QUOTE ]

lol wtf dude

It costs us t300 to call. The pot already contains t1000. If you flop a set I am pretty sure you gain on average something like t2000 more from his stack on average. (sometimes you don't win showdown, and sometimes he folds[very unlikey]).

Anyway, it costs you t300, and if you are like 95% sure to get his stack, plus what is already in the pot. This is like t3500, and the pot odds are there.

[GOONERCAM]

WOW. We agree to disagree. Im not disputing the pot odds at any stage. EVER. Im talking about our implied odds. If both players have bigger stacks our implied odds are huge but as we only have twice the pot on the flop they are not as most of the time we will not hit our jack. The pot odds are fine, and if we flop a set im pretty sure we double up, thats not what im arguing. The implied odds however are not HUGE ,as you said, for reasons above.

[Fiksdal]

Dude this is straight out math. It can't be argued.

What can be argued though, is how often we stack him when we hit.

[GOONERCAM]

Look im done arguing. We agree 2 disagree, i agree with doyle, thats it. We can go on 4ever but the fact is we will never agree. I cannot explain the implied odds factor in this situation well enuf so that is that. But good debate never the less.