Life is Never Easy

[uclabruinz]

I didn't mean to grumble, and my live experience is limited to a WSOP circui and this year's WSOP. So I have way, way, way more experience online.

They are just different games. In my view, the live game takes all the fundamentals that mostly drive the online game and then adds in all the live variables that you don't get online.

[THEOSU]

all,

villain's raise was quality. yes, it's a "bet to find out where you are" strategy, and while getting called doesn't give us a great deal of info, it's a lot more info than just a call would give, as a player as aggressive as MLG (and I assume that villain had to know by now that Mike is aggressive).

the key to teh raise from villain's perspective is it's a raise that can be made with a variety of hands. in no way did it disclose his actual holding.


mike,

i doubt you could have gotten much more from him other than maybe 1000 on a blank river. when you factor in his range of hands, this bet was probably best.

[uclabruinz]

[ QUOTE ]
villain's raise was quality. yes, it's a "bet to find out where you are" strategy, and while getting called doesn't give us a great deal of info, it's a lot more info than just a call would give, as a player as aggressive as MLG (and I assume that villain had to know by now that Mike is aggressive).

the key to teh raise from villain's perspective is it's a raise that can be made with a variety of hands. in no way did it disclose his actual holding.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I don't agree with MLG's reasoning, and I really, really don't agree with this. What do we find out by raising? Mike is rarely folding unless he has absolutely nothing. What does a call/lead by Mike mean? What does a reraise mean? What does a jam mean?

If you are "raising for information" here, please explain to me what kind of information you are getting by Mike's various responses.

[THEOSU]

ucla,

I omitted the part about this play getting at least one free street while getting information. That's awfully valuable: 800+1000 < 350+800+2000.

Let's say villain calls Mike's bet. MLG then leads for 800 on the turn. Does villain know any more about where he stands than previously? An aggressive player has bet a low monotone board twice. He could have a big diamond, he could have one pair, he might have two pair or a straight. And then there's the not insignificant chance he thinks villain is weak and has air.

Now, let's give villain a hand such as, say, AdQs. Would AdQs raise in this situation? Absoultely. If one of the possibilities for Mike is a hand like QdJh, then Mike would probably have to consider the possibility of a fold here. Mike might get stubborn and not fold, but will almost certainly check the turn. The fact that Mike did not check the turn made a big diamond relatively unlikely.

OK, so villain raises for pot control purposes with a moderate strength hand that he would like to get to showdown quickly with (remember, sometimes the quickest and cheapest way to showdown is to bet or raise). Mike comes over top. It's possible villain has set himself up to get semibluffed by the Ad, or bluffed outright by no hand, but that's a risk that a medium strength hand always runs into, regardless. Villain can release to the 3 bet easily once his goal of a cheap showdown is not going to be met.

Let's give villain the KQ of spades. Villain could bluff raise this lead by Mike that looks as though it could just be stealing the pot. Villain could just fold. It's very unlikely that villain would call with KQ of spades. Villain bluff raises, MLG comes along and leads the turn, villain decides that discretion is the better part of valor and gives his attempt up.

My point is this: raising gives MLG really zero information as to what his hand is - there are an awful lot of possibilities here. A black overpair hoping for showdown, a big diamond, a bluff. Calling more or less announces your hand as: a pair that doesn't have a diamond, a "weak" big diamond (AcJd type hand), a pure float or a monster. None of the former can stand a turn bet, the latter can't just call the turn, so it's pretty silly to play a hand in the only way it guarantees you can't win it.

[MLG]

"If we call, the pot will now be 2900 and we will each have about 4500 behind on the river. This is the line I would have taken to this point if I were villain and I wonder if this is a good line (let's assume villain had black jacks). It leaves us enough behind to call a reasonable river bet and still have an okay stack if we lose, and it allows us to fold the river if we think we're beat compared to the pot odds we're getting."

Look how many more chips you're putting in the pot now than if you made it 850 on the flop. this isnt a good argument for your line being better for pot control.

[uclabruinz]

[ QUOTE ]
"If we call, the pot will now be 2900 and we will each have about 4500 behind on the river. This is the line I would have taken to this point if I were villain and I wonder if this is a good line (let's assume villain had black jacks). It leaves us enough behind to call a reasonable river bet and still have an okay stack if we lose, and it allows us to fold the river if we think we're beat compared to the pot odds we're getting."

Look how many more chips you're putting in the pot now than if you made it 850 on the flop. this isnt a good argument for your line being better for pot control.

[/ QUOTE ]

This assumes that you are always calling his flop bet and checking the turn.

[MLG]

no, it assumes that i am comfortable folding against his range of hands if he does anything other than call, and then check.

honestly with these stack sizes I would be against all but the craziest players.

[Dromar]

[ QUOTE ]
What do we find out by raising?

[/ QUOTE ]

We find out if Mike wants to play a big pot OOP.

[ QUOTE ]
Mike is rarely folding unless he has absolutely nothing. What does a call/lead by Mike mean?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd see that as lots of strength. It shows that the hand he has is good enough to play a big pot OOP. It also shows that Mike's hand is powerful, but he doesn't want to risk giving a free card.

[ QUOTE ]
What does a reraise mean?

[/ QUOTE ]

Strong hand.

[ QUOTE ]
What does a jam mean?

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, it means he's got a hand he wants to play with. The jam could also be seen as a semibluff.

A huge part of the value of this tiny raise is that it forces Mike to a big decision with his hand. If Mike calls the raise, he's going to be subject to possible large bets on future streets (big pot OOP). His willingness to call the raise, given the probable upcoming betting lines, shows lots of strength IMO. Either that, or Mike just didn't think out the situation. Bottom line is this: If Mike is good enough that he won't call the extra 500 if he can't call a bet on the turn and possibly river, then a call shows a lot of strength. Personally, I think it was a great info raise.

I suppose there's also a chance that it might end in a cheap showdown too occasionally.

[fnord_too]

c/c the flop crai any non diamond turn.

If he doesn't cooperate, play poker [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Edit
read this:
[ QUOTE ]
When I say a plan, i mean complete with contingencies. If you want to bet, what do you do on various turn cards if he calls...if you want to check raise, various turn cards if he checks behind, so on and so forth.



[/ QUOTE ]

after I posted.

There are way too many possibilities to go through, but I am happy getting it all in without another diamond on board (obviously). I am not happy letting the flop and turn get checked through. reads are uber important in this spot, and how I play is going to be very opponent specific. I like waiting until the turn to get the money in since I would rather get the money in when a diamond is about a 4:1 dog to me than a 2:1 dog, but if I think I can get an aggressive player with a big diamond to semi bluff all in on the flop, but not get much out of him on the turn, I will play to get it all in on the flop, which may mean c/ring the flop to give him a the perception that he has a great semi-bluff pushing spot.