Congratulations! You just became the manager of a Vegas poker room!

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
Pretty interesting thread....a few points here.

1) As the manager of a poker room, you have 3 goals:

A) Meet revenue projections
B) Comply with Gaming and internal rules
C) Meet revenue projections

All of the ideas sound great, but the problem if A) and C) are not met, you will be out like a trout.

Rooms like Wynn and Venetian used the 'give it all away to the players' approach, and while the rooms might be busy, they are not profitable......I can assure you of that!!!

(This is not a flame, so please do not be affended if you are a shill for W or V.....but fact is, those rooms make no money)

Or one can go the Caesars or Mirage room, give the players nothing.....those rooms are not very profitable either.

The key problem as I see it today is that Vice Presidents in these hotels all are chasing the Bellagio.

The want Bellagio revenue levels and they want Bellagio business levels.

Problem is they are not the Bellagio. They do not have carte blanche with the pros....the do not have 4 major poker tournaments a year that drive huge business...they do not have 20 year relationships with their clientele (dating back to Mirage) like the Bellagio does. They do not have a CEO who was a world champion like Bellagio does.

These factors make it almost impossible to succeed.

All I can tell you is that if you are a new Poker Room Manager, you need to try to do 3 things:

1) Get you annual goal set as low as possible, because all the hotel presidents want to beat the Bellagio in one year, and it ain't going to happen.

2) Make sure you hire floorpeople that know the rules and have a heart for service.

3) Sit the games that drop the money.....30/60 is a waste of time, and to get those level of players from the Bellagio, you are going to have to lose money, and trust me, you cannot afford that as a poker room manager.

Get thoughts like 'rakeback' and 'freerolls' out of your mind.

Finally - Hope you have a GM/VP who understands that beating the Bellagio is a pipe dream.

[/ QUOTE ]

You made a few errors in your post, lets discuss.

1) Wynn doesn't give a lot away in comps, you are mistaken about that. They probably give out comps on par with the ratio at Bellagio. Although I would venture to guess that based on what we know it takes to run and build the Venetian its not turning a profit, but where is the proof for your basis that the Wynn doesn't turn a profit? Or that the Mirage doesn't turn a profit? I think thats a bold statement that you made, please back it up with proof rather than assumptions. Profit is measured in many ways; yes its no secret that poker is not as profitable as the equivalent square footage of table games, but poker is a marketable draw and most rooms of the size discussed in your post do turn a yearly profit. Keep in mind that poker profits are not necessarily measured on the same scale as other game revenue generators, by your scale that means the movie theaters at GVR, Palms, and Red Rock should be shut down since they don't generate the revenue that the poker rooms do. And no more Keno either, because that doesn't bring in profits the size of blackjack. These games are apples and oranges, and casino management today commonly acknowledge that while poker profits are smaller than table games they are vital to the casino economy.

2) This thread is not about opinions, its only about solutions. It doesn't matter if you think the management's philosophy is wrong, you have a job to do and if you don't get it done you will be replaced, thats the premise of this thread - to really think like poker room management does as if their job depended on the directives given to them.

PS: Some friends of mine and I were chatting about this thread last night, there is truly some innovative thinking found here - it once again shows how the 2+2 think tank can often prove wiser than hardened pros.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[bigbeardedbryan]

Appeal to the egos of your players.

Set a time to tape your "big game" Live at the Bike-style and make sure footage of it is rolling over a 10-20 or 15-30 table during peak hours. Make it accessible from your website (you do have one, and it is updated regularly, right?) and show it anywhere else you can--local TV, over the bar in the sportsbook, etc.

Make it known that you will be taping high-limit games at given times for marketing purposes, and in exchange for the use of a player's likeness, issue meal comps or some other incentive. I suspect this would pique the interest of enough tourists to feed the locals.

[RR]

[ QUOTE ]
3) Sit the games that drop the money.....30/60 is a waste of time, and to get those level of players from the Bellagio, you are going to have to lose money, and trust me, you cannot afford that as a poker room manager.


[/ QUOTE ]

There are a couple of things to keep in mind here. You want to make money, but at the same time you cannot make the poker room something the casino doesn't want. Casinos like making money, often the poker games that will give the biggest drop should not be spread because the players in these games will drive away more important casino players. If your game attracts players that stink, you need to get rid of it. If your pit min is $25, you do not want a $2-$4 hold'em in the poker room. If a pit player wants to go play poker for a bit they need to have a game that will keep their interest rather than having to leave the casino to play poker. If your only games are $2-$4 and $1-$2 NL you have nothing for a black chip pit player to play to you effectively do not have a poker room.

[tourney guy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pretty interesting thread....a few points here.

1) As the manager of a poker room, you have 3 goals:

A) Meet revenue projections
B) Comply with Gaming and internal rules
C) Meet revenue projections

All of the ideas sound great, but the problem if A) and C) are not met, you will be out like a trout.

Rooms like Wynn and Venetian used the 'give it all away to the players' approach, and while the rooms might be busy, they are not profitable......I can assure you of that!!!

(This is not a flame, so please do not be affended if you are a shill for W or V.....but fact is, those rooms make no money)

Or one can go the Caesars or Mirage room, give the players nothing.....those rooms are not very profitable either.

The key problem as I see it today is that Vice Presidents in these hotels all are chasing the Bellagio.

The want Bellagio revenue levels and they want Bellagio business levels.

Problem is they are not the Bellagio. They do not have carte blanche with the pros....the do not have 4 major poker tournaments a year that drive huge business...they do not have 20 year relationships with their clientele (dating back to Mirage) like the Bellagio does. They do not have a CEO who was a world champion like Bellagio does.

These factors make it almost impossible to succeed.

All I can tell you is that if you are a new Poker Room Manager, you need to try to do 3 things:

1) Get you annual goal set as low as possible, because all the hotel presidents want to beat the Bellagio in one year, and it ain't going to happen.

2) Make sure you hire floorpeople that know the rules and have a heart for service.

3) Sit the games that drop the money.....30/60 is a waste of time, and to get those level of players from the Bellagio, you are going to have to lose money, and trust me, you cannot afford that as a poker room manager.

Get thoughts like 'rakeback' and 'freerolls' out of your mind.

Finally - Hope you have a GM/VP who understands that beating the Bellagio is a pipe dream.

[/ QUOTE ]

You made a few errors in your post, lets discuss.

1) Wynn doesn't give a lot away in comps, you are mistaken about that. They probably give out comps on par with the ratio at Bellagio. Although I would venture to guess that based on what we know it takes to run and build the Venetian its not turning a profit, but where is the proof for your basis that the Wynn doesn't turn a profit? Or that the Mirage doesn't turn a profit? I think thats a bold statement that you made, please back it up with proof rather than assumptions. Profit is measured in many ways; yes its no secret that poker is not as profitable as the equivalent square footage of table games, but poker is a marketable draw and most rooms of the size discussed in your post do turn a yearly profit. Keep in mind that poker profits are not necessarily measured on the same scale as other game revenue generators, by your scale that means the movie theaters at GVR, Palms, and Red Rock should be shut down since they don't generate the revenue that the poker rooms do. And no more Keno either, because that doesn't bring in profits the size of blackjack. These games are apples and oranges, and casino management today commonly acknowledge that while poker profits are smaller than table games they are vital to the casino economy.

2) This thread is not about opinions, its only about solutions. It doesn't matter if you think the management's philosophy is wrong, you have a job to do and if you don't get it done you will be replaced, thats the premise of this thread - to really think like poker room management does as if their job depended on the directives given to them.

PS: Some friends of mine and I were chatting about this thread last night, there is truly some innovative thinking found here - it once again shows how the 2+2 think tank can often prove wiser than hardened pros.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Pardon me - The post asked what I would do if I became the Poker room manager of a Vegas Card Room.

1) Wynn, in 2006, gave out more comps than anyone. How do I know, I know Ms. McCall and other staff still employed there. I know what they gave out full buffets when you walked in the door, they had the 30/60 players ordering from the room service menu and that ain't cheap.

It is obvious to anyone who played at Wynn in 2006, myself included, knows they comped much more than at a per hour rate. It is totally obvious - why would you question it???

As to profitability - I am not talking about red ink, I am talking about making financial goals. Wynn was not even close to meeting its financial goals because it gave way, way too much away. If you would like to know how I know, we can discuss that off line.

You make the mistake many others make. You are asking how one would manage a poker room, then ask for creative ideas that either have been tried and failed, or are not plausible.

As to my 'opinion' or 'solution', I notice you did not evaluate my 3 basic tenets:

1) Have an achievable goal
2) Have staff who truly understanf rules and guest service
3) Sit games that make money.

Sounds like a simple, yet very effective gameplan to have. I know at least two card rooms that use this strategy, and both are very successful and have sustainable business. All of the new rooms that had upper management try to wrestle away big bet action have been less successful.

I was only responding to the initial post that you threw out regarding 30/60, etc.

[timmer]

first I reread my contract and find out what kind of severance package is involved. then either

After boinking a few cocktail girls, quit

or

just enjoy the ride till they can you

you are not catching the bellagio, out moneying wynn or venetian, or out jackpotting the stations.

your best bet is to deal a fair game your regulars enjoy. comp them judiciously and run a few low vig tourney series.

you sure as hell cant bow to short handed online specialists from out of town unless the regulars want to give them a try.

if you want a 30/60 you better run a 30/60.

if your Ceasars your pretty well f00ked because harrass has already alienated most the locals and with out a regular player base youre 24/7/365 30/60 game is pretty much toast in vegas.

rights to entry in Vegas poker rooms is so high right now that if you are not already established you really dont have a prayer unless you want to deal to 2-4 and 4-8 to tired out locals looking for a meal ticket.

if this is the V get sheldon to stick a crowbar into his wallett and quit fuckign the local contractors. that would be a good start.

[moneyshot]

one key point that noone has mentioned in the first 125 posts is you need top understand the structure of the lower limit games. You need to ensure that players winning big in the lower mid limits can reasonably take a shot at this game.

Part of the problem with Wynn when it opened when it went straight from 15/30 to 40/80. That's a big jump.

[52s]

[ QUOTE ]
If a poker room is filled with low limit games it is doomed to be closed once the poker boom is over. As recently as 2001 poker rooms were being replaced with empty space because the casino didn't want the sort of people that low limit poker tables attract.

[/ QUOTE ]

To me there's a vast difference between a room full of 2/4 and 3/6 limit poker, which is 95% local scum, and what you would have now, which is 1/2 no limit poker.

Sorry for the bold, but the difference is that pretty much anybody can sit down at the no limit table, it's just the matter of the buy-in allowed, really.

If a room can get a bunch of 1/2s, eventually there'll be people itching to play a tad higher, so hey, let's start up a 2/5... get a couple 2/5s going, hey look, here's the black chip guy, he wants 5/10, who wants a shot at him? Some players may give it a go, or depending on the room's buy-in rules, the black chip guy sits down at the 2/5 with 2500 in front of him, and the people in the game with 300-1000 in front of them are licking their chops for a piece.

On another tangent, poker rooms in Vegas are doomed to be closed anyway (or downsized) when the boom lessens solely due to the fact that there are too many tables in town already as it is.

Maybe I should've stressed with the "butts in the seats" comment that the preference would be butts in the seats in no-limit games, my personal disdain for 1-2 aside.

[52s]

[ QUOTE ]
if your Ceasars your pretty well f00ked because harrass has already alienated most the locals and with out a regular player base youre 24/7/365 30/60 game is pretty much toast in vegas.


[/ QUOTE ]

No chance it's Caesars that TT is veiling referring to with his mythical poker room in Vegas that doesn't exist but really does exist - they're highest limit game run kinda-regularly is 6/12. They're happier with multiple 2/5s, some 5/10s, and a tourney room chock full of people for special events.

Spring Mountain Rd. is where this is at.

[somapopper]

Cool topic. Here's my stab, which is mostly stealing from the other good ideas in the topic.

1. Instead of handing out pagers and worrying if people bring them back, use an automated system where it will call the player's cell phone or send a text message with the limit and the number of players.

2. Put the 30/60 game on the rail.

3. Don't fill the room with 1/2nl and 2/4. You need enough feeder games so that people can move up limits.

4. Sign over the desk: "Play smart. Play for less. Shorthanded games are lower rake at XXX." Post a generous graduated shorthanded rake structure below.

5. Hire a host who's affable, good looking, well dressed, and knows players who will want to come to the game.

6. Offer double comps if a player plays 6 hours or more in 15/30 and up. Hit double comps 3 times and you're invited to the XXX poker player's club. Player's club includes poker rate on rooms, a card with a poker graphic, and maybe the occasional club pass or buffet comp. For tourists, have the floor or host write a quick PERSONAL email to the person i.e. "Thanks for playing at XXX while you were here. You really got me with those jacks." Obviously this requires that the floor/ host pay attention to the people they see several nights in a row.

7. Have someone on hand to bring food over from the coffee shop, make dinner/ show reservations, and sports bets for players.

I'm operating under the theory that you won't get the locals unless you get the tourists, and that the key to the tourists is being made to feel wanted/ important. Start with getting the 15/30 healthy and the 30/60 will come.

[drewjustdrew]

I have not read past post 30 or so, so if I am repeating some, I apologize. Here are my thoughts beyond rake reduction and comp systems:

1. Weekly/Monthly Freeroll tourney for short handed players/table starters. Make it a 6 handed limit event for consistency.
2. Develop a list of players willing to play short handed at those stakes. Get their emails. Provide comps for them to show up at scheduled times to start a game. Coordinate the start as if it was a home-game.
3. Provide a guaranteed game. "If we don't have it running, we will pay you $10/hour (or whatever) until we start dealing 5 handed". You have to play for 1 hour to collect. Of course the payment is small, so that people aren't taking advantage of the system. It shows you are interested in keeping the game running.