Israel's Attack on Lebanon and Hezbollah

[theblitz]

Since the Hizbullah sets up its bases within civilian areas it is impossible to avoid civilian casualties.
So, Israel should not attack them?

This is what the Geneva Convention has to say about using civilians as shields:

(Part III Article 28)

"The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations."

http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/y4gcpcp.htm

[nicky g]

As I've posteed elsewhere, HB has been telling civilians to evacuate areas it is strong in. Of course when they do, Israel blows up the cars they're travelling in. And of course we all know that for Israel, fleeing a war zone is tantamount to handing over the keys to your house forever.

It is strange how with all these HB fighters hidden in amongst civilians, Israel has managed to kill 130 civilians but only 13 HB fighters. Better keep killing them civilians I guess, just in case.

[theblitz]

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It is strange how with all these HB fighters hidden in amongst civilians, Israel has managed to kill 130 civilians but only 13 HB fighters.

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Maybe because they use 10 civilians to protect each one of their fighters?

The fact is that at the end of the day the Israelis are always responsible. "It's your fault that we are shooting rockets into your towns and cities and you have no right to fight back. Who do you think you are?"

[ACPlayer]

Anybody see any other reports these lines

The logic appears to make some sense.

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But this claim is almost always false. My own reporting and that of other journalists reveals that in fact Hezbollah fighters -- as opposed to the much more numerous Hezbollah political members, and the vastly more numerous Hezbollah sympathizers -- avoid civilians. Much smarter and better trained than the PLO and Hamas fighters, they know that if they mingle with civilians, they will sooner or later be betrayed by collaborators -- as so many Palestinian militants have been.

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[nicky g]

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Anybody see any other reports these lines

The logic appears to make some sense.

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But this claim is almost always false. My own reporting and that of other journalists reveals that in fact Hezbollah fighters -- as opposed to the much more numerous Hezbollah political members, and the vastly more numerous Hezbollah sympathizers -- avoid civilians. Much smarter and better trained than the PLO and Hamas fighters, they know that if they mingle with civilians, they will sooner or later be betrayed by collaborators -- as so many Palestinian militants have been.

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Nice find. I read a quote from a Lebanese analyst arguing that they also have no need (and indeed would be stupid to) hide missiles in people's homes, as is often alleged without any evidence offered (by people who've rarely been anywhere near southern Lebanon), as they have a large network of reinforced bunkers throughout the Lebanese countryside to store arms in.

While hardly any evidence of Hizb Allah using "human shields" has been offered (gain on the news tonight, civilians were pleading for a lull in the Israeli shelling so that they could flee the villages they're trapped in), I notice that the very blog article linked to defending the incident of the Israeli children writing on shells noted that the army unit in question was preparing to shell Lebanon at the time, from the town the chidren lived in. I'd love to know how people would react to photos of Hizb ALlah allowing children to mill around them while they were preparing to shell Israel.

[Utah]

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ice find. I read a quote from a Lebanese analyst arguing that they also have no need (and indeed would be stupid to) hide missiles in people's homes, as is often alleged without any evidence offered (by people who've rarely been anywhere near southern Lebanon), as they have a large network of reinforced bunkers throughout the Lebanese countryside to store arms in.

While hardly any evidence of Hizb Allah using "human shields" has been offered (gain on the news tonight, civilians were pleading for a lull in the Israeli shelling so that they could flee the villages they're trapped in), I notice that the very blog article linked to defending the incident of the Israeli children writing on shells noted that the army unit in question was preparing to shell Lebanon at the time, from the town the chidren lived in. I'd love to know how people would react to photos of Hizb ALlah allowing children to mill around them while they were preparing to shell Israel.

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I dont know much about the current situation and so I cant comment much. But, isnt this really a non-sensical argument? Does it somehow make their actions different whether they hide with civilians or not because their whole agenda is to launch rockets indiscriminately at civilians to terrorize, kill, and maim? It seems to me you are suggesting:

A) Hide in civilians / intentionally bomb civilians = BAD
b) Dont hide in civilians / intentionally bomb civilians = Better or okay

What am I missing?

[BCPVP]

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What am I missing?

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To me, it brings into question why Israel has racked up hundreds of civilian deaths if Hezbollah is largely not hiding amongst them.

[Howard Beale]

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What am I missing?

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To me, it brings into question why Israel has racked up hundreds of civilian deaths if Hezbollah is largely not hiding amongst them.

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'...if Hezbollah is largely not hiding amongst them'. My own admitted prejudices may be causing me to read this as you saying: 'To me, it brings into question why Israel has racked up hundreds of civilian deaths since Hezbollah is largely not hiding amongst them'.

And what does 'largely' really mean? You make it sound like an excuse in case Hezbollah is proven to have been hiding amongst civilians so that it can be said 'Yes, well, not largely enough to account for all the civilian deaths'.

Link to a page with captioned pictures of the destruction in South Beirut. I would've expected civilian casualties in the many thousands if these were apartment buildings deliberately targeted by Israel without warning.

[Utah]

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To me, it brings into question why Israel has racked up hundreds of civilian deaths if Hezbollah is largely not hiding amongst them.

[/ QUOTE ]I do not know if it is true that Israel has racked up hundreds of civilian deaths if Hezbollah but I will assume it is.

So what? Lets say we knew for an absolute fact that Israel was specifically targeting civilians to terrorize and kill them. Would it not be fair to say that Israel at worst is simply engaging in the same tactics as its enemy who we know for a fact is specifically targeting civilians to terrorize and kill them? If both sides agree to use the same tactics then let them fight it out.

There is no morality in war and civilian death tallys are silly. ALL militaries and countries will slaughter mass numbers of civilians when they deem such actions neccessary. All there is in war is measures and counter-measures.

[ACPlayer]

The main point made in that article was that mixing with civilians on their own side exposes them to betrayal and as such is a security concern.

Conjecture --> If Hizb had precision guided rockets they may not cause as much civil damage. However, looking from the perspective of the dug in and embattled hizb --- not doing anything while the enemy fires hundreds of bombs killing many civilians --- is a political disaster.