how much do you actually enjoy poker?

[AbreuTime]

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Gimme a break. Stop comparing multitabling online grinders to Kobe or Tiger. They are the best in the world at sports that are highly respected, make MILLIONS of dollars, are famous, and competing for their respective championships must be a helluva lot more exciting and fulfilling then trying to weed through a 9000 person field in a $10k tournament or maintaining a 3 pt winrate.

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you're an idiot...sorry. i used kobe and tiger becuase everyone knows them. maybe this will help you...theres a guy in miami named ramon puig. he is like 90 and makes shirts for a living. the best guayabera shirts in the world. he makes the custom ordered ones personally by hand. including several for myself. he is not rich, works hard and would not trade his shirt business for the money EVER. he loves it...does that help? i cant beleive i wasted time typing that for one moron who doesnt understand the use of common points of reference.

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your wrong and you're a moron and you should read replies...if you did you would see that most everyone agrees that at LEAST 70% of winning players would take the money. are they all on losing streaks? do you think i started mentoring people last week? where do idiots come from?

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All,

FYI, in EDF you are allowed to call people morons and idiots if they post in a thread you started.

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not to mention im right, they came at me first and....i digress. there should be a thread about how somneone who over the last 7 years has attempted to contribute so much and is still treated like a dude who started posting yesterday. when you have an emotional reaction to something ive posted stopm and wonder why. although im not eloquent i have paid my dues and deserve more than....terrrible post. and i will bury you in an arguement. this i know.

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I know you're a big-time poster, Limon, but seriously, re-read some of your posts. I'm sorry everyone didnt wholeheartedly agree with your assertions. Go ahead, call me an idiot and moron for disagreeing, but a sense of entitlement is unbecoming (even if "earned").

I happen to agree that one's "current" love of poker is strongly influenced by how he's running. If you are making millions playing online poker, I would think you would be pretty high on the game. If you have a losing month, then the game sucks. The emotions that someone experiences from lucky/unlucky rivercards can easily be transfered to the feelings about the game in general.

I also think the analogy was bad, comparing Tiger Woods to the 1/2 grinder. Tiger's fame/legacy probably have some value, beyond just his expected earnings. Actually, it is correlated with his earnings, since his endorsements flow directly from his fame. His fame thus has some value (in corporate finance, it could be considered "goodwill") beyond his direct earn from tournaments. The 2/4 grinder has no such goodwill, and based on flat expectations of future earn (which you fail to address, and the expectation of RISING future earnings-rate likely explains why many small stakes/mid stakes people would decline the offer) he may accept the offer. As I am sure you are aware, people tend to overestimate their skill level. This phenomenon probably causes more people than expected to decline your offer, since most people think they will improve and make more money in the future.

Additionally, if I am still working when I am 90, I will be working because I like my job. Your friend Ramon Puig sounds nice and all, but again, I don't see how this guy makes any difference to your "argument." If anyone works past retirement age and doesn't need the money, then they probably like their job. Are you comparing Doyle Brunson to this guy, or are you comparing a middle-aged grinder to this guy, or a hotshot young buck who thinks he's going to take the poker world by storm? Again, this clarification cannot be ignored, and may have been useful in the OP.

You should not disregard the nuances of the offer (goodwill, opportunity cost of time, expectations of improvement, current streak of luck) because reflection on them results in a conflict with your anecdotal OP. Perhaps you could clarify the OP, and posit that high stakes players with flat-line results over a decent time period would rather simply have the money than grind it. I can agree with that.

[Phat Mack]

Great thread, glad I checked out the forum this AM.

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i told them both that that is the reason they are losing.

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You're right, that's why they're losing. It's also why people lose in other jobs, in relationships, and in life itself. If something isn't a great deal of fun, find something else to do, or, better yet, make it fun.

[AZK]

Limon,

At the height of my game, I loved it with a passion whether I was winning or losing and couldn't stop thinking about/playing the game. Since then, I hate it. Whether I win or lose, I hate it. I hate it even more when I lose, but also don't have the same high's when I win. It's taken a nice chunk of my mental roll to realize this. Financially I've more or less broken even in the last 9 months. Breaking even kills me more than losing, becuase I have nothing to show for my work. Even losing, something physically happened, but when the bank account doesn't change, and I see hours down the drain, I get so angry with myself because I know there is a lot of other stuff I could be doing. I always loved the money, but somewhere along the line I became obsessed with the money and didn't care anymore about the other things you describe which make poker a great game. I don't think I'll ever get back on the non-money track. I'll be in vegas for a few weeks to "relax" and play some, hopefully I run good and get past $$$ for a few weeks but I doubt it. Vegas will probably be my real last poker since like you online is worse for me and the games around here aren't worth the $ to me. Poker has sort of left me with an emptiness that comes and goes but as long as I post here and play it stays, hopefully it will go away over time, but sometimes I wish I never learned to play.

Cliff notes: I agree with you 100% and I think that my plateau/decline in the game is due to the fact that a) I don't care about improving/poker anymore b) I really only care about money/want easy scores.

edit: I think the lazy gene in most people, especially magnified on this site, is one major reason why most would take a check over doing anything.

[Ghazban]

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I honestly am often surprised at the number of people who put in big hours at poker but really don't seem to like the game much at all.

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Me too. I'm surprised by the number of people who put in big hours at ANYTHING they don't really enjoy. I have a friend I've known my whole life (we grew up as next-door neighbors) who views his job as just there for money. He doesn't really like what he does but likes the amount he gets paid to do it so it's worth it for him. He likes having 5 days a week when he can't do squat but work in exchange for 2 days a week when he can pretty much do what he wants (expensive gadgets, trips, etc.). That mentality is totally alien to me but I doubt it's uncommon (in the US anyway).

[kutuz_off]

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i absolutely love poker when i'm running good and destroying everyone, and i hate it more than anything when i'm running bad.

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This is why a lot of people would take the check. $X EV with 0 variance >>> $X EV with huuuuuuge variance.

As for myself, I don't enjoy Texas Holdem a whole lot anymore. I do still love PLO and HORSE, and wouldn't really want to give those up. I also enjoy thinking about hands away from the table, reading 2+2, all those poker non-playing things. However, if I were paid not to play poker (which would have to mean ceasing to read 2+2 most likely, and everything else related) at my current winrate, I'd take the check and go back to bridge or backgammon or whatever.

[Dids]

I enjoy poker a great deal when I win.

I hate it a lot when I lose.

As per my "House" post, I with I was able to care about it less, I would have been better/made more money.

If limon's point is "you will likely be better at poker if you really love the game" I buy it.

If his point is "you suck if you don't" then I don't buy it.

[SEABEAST]

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This OP wasn't very good and I'm not sure how much the thread itself has progressed, but I'll try to talk about what everyone else is at this point and not the loaded question in the OP.

I don't enjoy poker like you. I use it to make money. I use it to allow me live wherever I please. If something else just as boring as poker came along where I could make more, I'd go for it.

However, that doesn't mean I slack off and don't examine my game. I realize this is how I make a living and that I need to always be striving to do better at it. That doesn't mean I have to enjoy poker in the least. I'd just as soon rather be doing almost anything else.

I'd also consider myself one of the more successful players on 2+2 (though there are definitely a ton WAY more successful than I am) so, at least for me, I think your notion that loving poker is a requirement for making a lot from it is bunk.

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I'm mostly in the same boat. However, I've gotta admit that really, though I often pretend not to, I do love poker. I would take the cheque but only to lock in the absurd amount of money poker currently earns for me. I know the games won't always be this good, and I know I won't always have the drive to put in the hours and energy necessary to really kill it. If you are going to give me 500/hr to quit the game then great, I would much prefer the guarantee, and most of the time I would rather be doing a ton of other things than poker. Nevertheless, my gf just left after 30 hours at my house, and, after spending that entire time doing whatever I felt like, I am really looking forward to playing tonight. And it has nothing to do with the money. I have been playing for 7 years, so it's not the fun of seeing cards either. It's the competitive aspect.

[Mench]

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Limon,

At the height of my game, I loved it with a passion whether I was winning or losing and couldn't stop thinking about/playing the game. Since then, I hate it. Whether I win or lose, I hate it. I hate it even more when I lose, but also don't have the same high's when I win. It's taken a nice chunk of my mental roll to realize this. Financially I've more or less broken even in the last 9 months. Breaking even kills me more than losing, becuase I have nothing to show for my work. Even losing, something physically happened, but when the bank account doesn't change, and I see hours down the drain, I get so angry with myself because I know there is a lot of other stuff I could be doing. I always loved the money, but somewhere along the line I became obsessed with the money and didn't care anymore about the other things you describe which make poker a great game. I don't think I'll ever get back on the non-money track. I'll be in vegas for a few weeks to "relax" and play some, hopefully I run good and get past $$$ for a few weeks but I doubt it. Vegas will probably be my real last poker since like you online is worse for me and the games around here aren't worth the $ to me. Poker has sort of left me with an emptiness that comes and goes but as long as I post here and play it stays, hopefully it will go away over time, but sometimes I wish I never learned to play.

Cliff notes: I agree with you 100% and I think that my plateau/decline in the game is due to the fact that a) I don't care about improving/poker anymore b) I really only care about money/want easy scores.

edit: I think the lazy gene in most people, especially magnified on this site, is one major reason why most would take a check over doing anything.

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This is so well put, and is basically it for me. This spring I spent my time abroad in Italy and traveling Europe, sans poker. I thought when I came back I would have a desire to play well, improve my game, and really grind it out. But swings that I used to take in stride really kill me now, and I don't like the game, even when I win I'm not that happy, and when I lose I get very upset. I'm going to take a month off I hope, maybe more and probably grind some when I'm back at school in the fall, but as far as my dreams of grandeur from 1 year ago, or 6 months ago, I now know that the games are too hard, and I wouldn't be able to handle the swings. I often wish I never started to make money at this game, or got into it as more than a hobby.

[limon]

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I would take the check.

I like poker only to the extent that it provides me an alternative way to support myself. I have gotten to the point where I do not enjoy the game a whole lot, especially online multitabling.

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i would imagine 100% of shortstackers would take the check in a heartbeat

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shortstackers will change the face of on line poker (YOU HEARD IR HERE 1ST!!!)

[limon]

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I would take the check.

I like poker only to the extent that it provides me an alternative way to support myself. I have gotten to the point where I do not enjoy the game a whole lot, especially online multitabling.

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i would imagine 100% of shortstackers would take the check in a heartbeat

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Only if they could run away after getting the check.

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shortstackers will change the face of on line poker (YOU HEARS It HERE 1ST!!!)