LA Times Op-ed: Islam gets concessions; infidels get conquered

[nicky g]

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Many Palestinians have died by ambulances being held up at checkpoints within the West Bank and prevented from getting to Palestinain medical facilities.

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Many Israelis have died because of Palestinians using tricks to sneak suicide bombers into Israeli land. They have even used pregnant women falsely claiming they need medical help. Based on their past trickery, the Israelis would be fools to not inspect ambulances. If your account is true then it is another example of the Palestinians reaping what they have sown....

Another self-inflicted injury... Thank you for making my point.

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Inspecting ambulances is one thin - holding them up for hours is another. You continue with your fiction that restriction of movement is limited to movement between teh West Bank and Israel whereas the vast majority of these checkpoints impede movement within the West Bank itself. Please address that.

[nicky g]

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I don't think that. I just think it is ridiculous that you blame "Arab culture" for Palestinian political problems that would clearly arise if other non-Arab groups were involved in similar situations. For instance you no doubt blame Arab culture for the Palestinians refusing partition in 1948, when it's patently obvious that no group whatsoever would ever accept the partition of a territory they consituted a large majority in to make way for a state project by recent immigrants.

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Fine, but most other displaced groups (and there have been many) have not stuck to an "all or nothing" policy, nor resorted to regular suicide bombings.

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Neither side is wholly good or wholly evil; the problem is the Israelis have always been far too pwerful vis-a-vis the Palestinians for a compromise solution to ever emerge.

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Of course neither side is wholly good or evil, and maybe given Israel's power it does not have enough incentive to offer a decent compromise. But it seems that the "all or nothing" mindset and political clout of those with such views amongst the Palestinians, is too widespread, too irrational, and too violent. There are simply too many Palestinian political players (and common people as well) who will accept nothing less than the total destruction of Israel. Now, that's crazy, to fight an irrational and unwinnable battle forever and in the process consign themselves and their descendants to misery on top of unfulfillment. I can't think of another displaced people that has ever adopted such an intransigent, irrational and self-destructive position as the fairly widespread view amongst Palestinians that nothing less than the total destruction of Israel will suffice. And they are thereby choosing to live in misery (instead of building up their own productive resources, and also striving for a compromise) because of that black-or-white viewpoint held by so many. It may well be a minority opinion amongst the Palestinians but it is also fairly widespread. And that is both stupid and crazy.

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A clear majority of Palestinians have supported a two state solution for a long time. One of the two main Palestinian factions is currently tryig to force the other into recognising Israel (despite the fact that it will get no recognition of a Palestinian state in return). Even the other, rejectionist, faction - Hamas - has made it clear for years that it would willingly accept a long term truce based on Israeli withdrawal and leave it up to future generations to decide if this is permanently acceptable. Together these factions represent nearly all Palestinians in the occupied territories. Those views may not be acceptable to you but they are a long way from the all-or-nothing, into-the-sea mentality you falsely ascribe to Palestinians.

[Utah]

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A clear majority of Palestinians have supported a two state solution for a long time. One of the two main Palestinian factions is currently tryig to force the other into recognising Israel (despite the fact that it will get no recognition of a Palestinian state in return). Even the other, rejectionist, faction - Hamas - has made it clear for years that it would willingly accept a long term truce based on Israeli withdrawal and leave it up to future generations to decide if this is permanently acceptable. Together these factions represent nearly all Palestinians in the occupied territories. Those views may not be acceptable to you but they are a long way from the all-or-nothing, into-the-sea mentality you falsely ascribe to Palestinians.

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I want six pack abs but I am not going to get them if I contiue to eat donuts. Wanting something is not the same thing as taking the neccessary steps to get something.

What real steps have the Palestinians taken to end the violence and hate towards Israel? Please note that I am not suggesting that the responsibility rests with the Palestinians and not with Israel. However, I am curious as to why the palestinians dont act in their own self interest?

[iron81]

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What real steps have the Palestinians taken to end the violence and hate towards Israel?

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[nicky g]

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A clear majority of Palestinians have supported a two state solution for a long time. One of the two main Palestinian factions is currently trying to force the other into recognising Israel (despite the fact that it will get no recognition of a Palestinian state in return). Even the other, rejectionist, faction - Hamas - has made it clear for years that it would willingly accept a long term truce based on Israeli withdrawal and leave it up to future generations to decide if this is permanently acceptable. Together these factions represent nearly all Palestinians in the occupied territories. Those views may not be acceptable to you but they are a long way from the all-or-nothing, into-the-sea mentality you falsely ascribe to Palestinians.

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I want six pack abs but I am not going to get them if I contiue to eat donuts. Wanting something is not the same thing as taking the neccessary steps to get something.

What real steps have the Palestinians taken to end the violence and hate towards Israel? Please note that I am not suggesting that the responsibility rests with the Palestinians and not with Israel. However, I am curious as to why the palestinians dont act in their own self interest?

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The PA and various Palestinian groups have been calling for and trying to restart negotiations for years, while Israel ahs ruled them out ever since Sharon came to power. There have been numerous truces, ceasefires etc over the years aimed at getting negotiations on track that have generally ended because of a lack of movement from Israel or its breaking of them. In the mid-90s there was a year of almost no violence that ended when Shimon Peres decided to lanch an assassination on a Hamas bomber. He may well have been morally justified in doing so but such actions will always create a backlash that lead to the collapse of ceasefires. Sharon was the king of deliberately provoking Palestinian groups to end ceasefires. There is a ceasefire in Gaza at the moment. Hamas has not launched a suicide attack in nearly two years. The problem is there are spoilers on both sides. You talk about "the Palestinians" as if they are a single entitity but even if the majority take a decision to end violence, there will always be smaller groups and rogue cells that will try to carry it on and their are major elements within the Israel political scene that are willing to take advantage of these or to create their own spoling actions that will put an end to an negotiations. Neither the PA nor the groups themselves have anything close to control over all militants and Israel has specifically consitently demanded a reduction in size of the same PA forces it has charged with containing these groups, when it is not actively engaged in destroying their infrastructure. Saying "if only the Palestinians would end violence, it would all be alright" is therfore simplistic fantasy - teh situation is far more complicated than a single group deciding whether or not to use violence.

One might also ask about Israeli goodwill measures - have they ever frozen settlement policies? The contrary, they have speeded up since the peace process began and settlements doubled over the Oslo years. Indeed at the same time as it began to implement Oslo Israel imposed tehclosure and checkpoint system that managed to make Palestinian life much worse than it was before. Have they formally recognised a Palestian state, even theoretically/provisonally, or expressed a willingness to do so said they would so in exchange for recognition of Israel? No, they keep the PA as a quasi-legal garbage-desposing administration but demand full reconginition of their own statehood, while refusing to say where the borders of that state lie. They have created an impossible situation whereby they refused for five years to deal with a PA adminsistration that recongnised their statehood, and now demand one that doesn't to do so before negotiations can begin, even though no such negotiations had taken place for years before and mutual recognition should be the subject of the talks, not their precursor.

So saying the Palestinian need to do something is simplistic garbage. They have done many things aimed at moving the situation forward, it is unrealistic to expect unliateral ceasefires to last indifeniteyl without being reciprocated, there are spoilers on both sides and there remains an at least equally large number of gestures that the Israeli state could and should make - and is more easily able to make than the PA or Palestinian groups - to build confidence.

[John Kilduff]

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I don't think that. I just think it is ridiculous that you blame "Arab culture" for Palestinian political problems that would clearly arise if other non-Arab groups were involved in similar situations. For instance you no doubt blame Arab culture for the Palestinians refusing partition in 1948, when it's patently obvious that no group whatsoever would ever accept the partition of a territory they consituted a large majority in to make way for a state project by recent immigrants.

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Fine, but most other displaced groups (and there have been many) have not stuck to an "all or nothing" policy, nor resorted to regular suicide bombings.

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Neither side is wholly good or wholly evil; the problem is the Israelis have always been far too pwerful vis-a-vis the Palestinians for a compromise solution to ever emerge.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course neither side is wholly good or evil, and maybe given Israel's power it does not have enough incentive to offer a decent compromise. But it seems that the "all or nothing" mindset and political clout of those with such views amongst the Palestinians, is too widespread, too irrational, and too violent. There are simply too many Palestinian political players (and common people as well) who will accept nothing less than the total destruction of Israel. Now, that's crazy, to fight an irrational and unwinnable battle forever and in the process consign themselves and their descendants to misery on top of unfulfillment. I can't think of another displaced people that has ever adopted such an intransigent, irrational and self-destructive position as the fairly widespread view amongst Palestinians that nothing less than the total destruction of Israel will suffice. And they are thereby choosing to live in misery (instead of building up their own productive resources, and also striving for a compromise) because of that black-or-white viewpoint held by so many. It may well be a minority opinion amongst the Palestinians but it is also fairly widespread. And that is both stupid and crazy.

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A clear majority of Palestinians have supported a two state solution for a long time. One of the two main Palestinian factions is currently tryig to force the other into recognising Israel (despite the fact that it will get no recognition of a Palestinian state in return). Even the other, rejectionist, faction - Hamas - has made it clear for years that it would willingly accept a long term truce based on Israeli withdrawal and leave it up to future generations to decide if this is permanently acceptable. Together these factions represent nearly all Palestinians in the occupied territories. Those views may not be acceptable to you but they are a long way from the all-or-nothing, into-the-sea mentality you falsely ascribe to Palestinians.

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No i guess I didn't make myself clear enough. I said "fairly widespread view", not majority view. I'm saying (and I do know that a majority of Palestinians purportedly would support a 2-state solution) that there is still enough of a large and influential minority, who simply will not ever support a 2-state solution. A large, violent and committed minority can effectively quash any diplomatic solution even one favored by the majority. Don't forget that that large (though minority) bloc is generally supportive of extreme violence. So the Palestinians as a whole will not accept a 2-state solution and will not rein in Hamas or their other wacko militant groups, because the majority is too weak and the minority is too widespread and violent.

Hamas' truce offer is purely a tactic to gain time to rebuild and attack later from a position of greater strength. Hamas has made it clear it will never back away from its goal of the utter destruction of Israel. Israel in fact grants Hamas a truce to Israel's own future peril.

By the way, could the Palestinians do anything more counterproductive to the goal of a 2-state solution, than theirpromptly attacking Israel from lands Israel just recently ceded to them?

[nicky g]

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I said "fairly widespread view", not majority view. I'm saying (and I do know that a majority of Palestinians purportedly would support a 2-state solution) that there is still enough of a large and influential minority, who simply will not ever support a 2-state solution.

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There is such a minority; how large it ischanges in repsonse to events. There is an at least equally large minority in the Israel side that will also never accept a two state solution. There will always be major dissenting minorities on both sides in such controversies; the trick is not to allow them to control the situation.

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Hamas has made it clear it will never back away from its goal of the utter destruction of Israel.


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Just saying such things doesn't make them true and most serious analysts of Hamas would disagree with you - see Hroub, or Meshaal and Sela (Isreli academics) for instance. In addition to the truce Hamas figures have suggested that if a majority of Palestinians supported a peace plan in a referendum they would have no choice but to acquiesce, even if they didn't agree. Finally, people can be as committed to the destuction of Israel for as long as they want but even with a million year truce no Palestinian group is ever going to be able to achieve it.

[Howard Beale]

Here's the latest on the Palestinian's budding civil war from CNN.

There's no hope of progress until this mess gets settled and who knows when, how and if it will be. The past few days have seen 10's of thousands of armed demonstrators taking to the streets, sometimes attacking each other, from each side. This hardly seems like small minorities to me. The Palestinians are an inch from civil war. Israel will likely get drawn into it. Then who knows what Hezbollah does. I think there's some pretty ugly stuff on the way and soon.

[Howard Beale]

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What real steps have the Palestinians taken to end the violence and hate towards Israel?

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Oh, please! Arafat was the greatest dissembler I've ever seen in my life. And the people who fell for his act the most self-delusional.

[Felix_Nietzsche]

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Inspecting ambulances is one thin - holding them up for hours is another.

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There are lots of hiding places 3 kg of explosives could be hidden in a vehicle. To get a bomb sniffing dog to the sight could indeed take hours. If no dog is available, then a regualr search would take much longer. Also there is a long history of other terrorist groups, such as Hamas, who have used red crecent vehicles to transfer ammunition and other war equipment. If anything, the red crecent symbol has become a HUGE red flag and Israeli troops must take extra precautions to search these vehicles. I think it is HIGHLY DISHONORABLE to use false medical emergencies to smuggle in military equipment but Palestinians continue to use these tactics. People like yourself get angry just because the Israelis use counter tactics to stop these shenigans. I suppose in your bizarro world the Israelis should just wave these vehicles in with no inspection and the Israelis that die as a result of smuggle bombs is just a price that must be paid. The blame lies with the PLO who CONTINUE to use these tricks to smuggle in bombs. The blame lies with them and no other...


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You continue with your fiction that restriction of movement is limited to movement between teh West Bank and Israel whereas the vast majority of these checkpoints impede movement within the West Bank itself. Please address that.

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Here is the map of the wall.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier
The VAST majority of land is contiguous. By the way, are you claiming Israeli has checkpoints where no Israeli land is involved?