What prevents evolution?

[chezlaw]

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But the chance element in evolution, if it did exist, would ultimately be under the control of God and would therefore affect only non-essential things (and God would define what is and isn't essential). So He might allow chance to decide whether a particular species survives if it doesn't matter to His overall plan, but if that species is integral to His plan He would guarantee its survival. No different than the coin flip example I gave. The bottom line is God is in control and nothing happens outside His will.

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It doen't seem we disagree much here - an omnipotent god could allow evolution by chance as much as he wants to. Obviously you dont think that is his will, presumably because you believe the bible?

Is that accurate?

chez

[hmkpoker]

"successful" species are those that continue to proliferate over a long period of time. Reproductive success and individual survival adaptation are both factors in the product.

For example, species A may produce one offspring from the parent at a time, but the offspring is at the top of the food chain, well-cared for by its parents, and physically fit, so it continues to exist.

Members of species B devout their offspring, have short lifespans and many predators, but they produce thousands of offspring at a time and reach maturity very quickly. So it has a success comparable to species A.


The fact that people can't see what the OP established boggles my mind.

[Bataglin]

Einstein: "God doesn't play dice"

Bohr: "Don't tell God what to do"

[godBoy]

I think god made creatures not a primodial soup. The facts of evolution(genetic mutations) does not contradict the bible. It's when evolution is used as an example of a theory to intellectually fulfill atheists that it starts to go against the biblical account of creation.

[MidGe]

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I think god made creatures not a primodial soup.

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That is what I thought.. Fortunately, and hopefully, it is only god"boy"'s thought

[toybux]

[ QUOTE ]

I've already said there's a sense in which I don't disagree with this. But the chance element in evolution, if it did exist, would ultimately be under the control of God and would therefore affect only non-essential things (and God would define what is and isn't essential). So He might allow chance to decide whether a particular species survives if it doesn't matter to His overall plan, but if that species is integral to His plan He would guarantee its survival. No different than the coin flip example I gave. The bottom line is God is in control and nothing happens outside His will.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see why you assume that God has to be in control to be the "God" we envision as all powerful and omnipotent. If God created the universe by 'inventing' physics and the other natural properties of the universe that have led to humanity's existence, it is entirely possible that he allowed "chance" (in the sense of an event that isn't predictably (predictable by a non-god being) controlled) to be a big part of the process. There is no reason that God would have to 'control' the system if he made it originally with the correct rules.

Also, another question for you: I assume you believe that free will exists. If I decide I am not sure if God exists or not, but will flip a coin to determine what I will believe, is the result of that coin chance, or does God control which side it ends up on? If the coin ends up on the atheist side, can I say that I have God's permission not to believe in him?

I think that you're bringing up a good point about the people who falsely claim that evolution or science disprove that God can exist. Its not your fault that people aren't reading what you are actually arguing.

[NotReady]

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There is no reason that God would have to 'control' the system if he made it originally with the correct rules.


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I think here we would just be arguing about what we mean by control. If God created the universe so that He knew when you flipped a coin and it would come up heads, and that's what He wants to happen, and if He could have created the universe slightly different so that the coin comes up tails if that's what He wants, then He's in ultimate control - chance in the absolute sense is still excluded. Also, He may not care which it is though He does know. So He may not actually act when it isn't necessary - but He could and so still has ultimate control.

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I assume you believe that free will exists.


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This is a very difficult question. I believe we have free will in the sense we are not coerced by God. I also believe we are morally responsible. Things start to get fuzzy after that. I've recently ordered a book by a theologian I admire and I believe he's going to discuss this issue a bit. Maybe I'll return to the subject later, but I feel very certain there will still be some mystery about this.

[ QUOTE ]

If the coin ends up on the atheist side, can I say that I have God's permission not to believe in him?


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LOL - see the verse that says "You shall not tempt the Lord your God."

[toybux]

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LOL - see the verse that says "You shall not tempt the Lord your God."

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Come on, at least try to answer the question. If the universe is devoid of chance, and chance is actually dictated by God, then this question has an answer beyond quoting a cop out verse.

[Nielsio]

Good post, I've argued the same point before.

Given a few simple principles, a mechanism is created. Only a traumatized person can not accept the reality of this mechanism.

[NotReady]

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If the universe is devoid of chance, and chance is actually dictated by God, then this question has an answer beyond quoting a cop out verse.


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Sorry, I thought you were kidding. But the situation you give is really just another way of asking about free will. Say you will "convert" if the coin comes heads. It's tails. Does that mean God doesn't want you to convert? He is in control of the results and could have made it heads. But you have chosen an illegitimate means to make your decision. God may allow you to remain in unbelief for any number of reasons even though He wants you to truly believe. And you are putting God to the test by doing that kind of thing.