Paired board question

Yerma · #1 03-31-2006, 04:42 AM

Here's something that's always been missing from my game, so I thought I would ask about it. This is a hand I wasn't involved in, and I would have played it very differently were I either player.

Ultimate Bet 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

SB has 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. UTG+1 has 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $1.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP3 calls, CO (poster) checks, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets, BB folds, UTG+1 raises, MP3 folds, CO folds, SB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 bets, SB calls.

River: (6.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks.

Final Pot: 6.50 BB

-------------------------------

Now, if it's me in SB against this many players, I would check-fold. If you try to get in a check-raise because, suppose, the last player leads at it. True, you will normally thin the field. But, any thinking player will see it for a blatant attempt to thin the field. That's not something flopped trips would do! Then they can play your hand as if it were face up.

If you try to lead at it, like SB actually did, the only action you can stand is an Ace-high call. Even then, the hand is vulnerable, hard to play, susceptible to bluffs down the road, etc.

But then, if you never lead at it, and never check-raise it, you might be giving up with what is the best hand too often here?

Now, the guy with 44...I don't do this either. He can beat bottom pair, and even that isn't very durable. He could already be drawing nearly dead to trips or get sucked out on. It's true, if he can knock everyone out and isn't up against trips, he can follow-thru on the turn. Then the bottom pair probably doesn't get to see the river (although he did in this hand).

So, if I never lead with bottom pair, and don't raise without at least an overpair, am I giving up too much? Is what they actually did really "textbook" play?

Fryguy · #2 03-31-2006, 05:55 AM

I play 44 exactly the same way here, occasionally finding a valuebet on the river.

As for 83s, well

1. I don't complete it preflop
2. It's kinda hard to get away from a 3 on that flop. I can probably fold the turn when my opponent is betting at me with the ace though.

Aaron W. · #3 03-31-2006, 01:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ultimate Bet 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

SB has 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. UTG+1 has 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $1.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP3 calls, CO (poster) checks, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets, BB folds, UTG+1 raises, MP3 folds, CO folds, SB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 bets, SB calls.

River: (6.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks.

Final Pot: 6.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I like SB's flop bet. But with such a weak hand, I would fold to the raise. Taking a stab here with a weak, vulnerable hand is really just asking if you can have the pot with no fight. The only difference is that when you get called, you might actually be in the lead (against a couple random overs, for example). He could also be dominated by A3s, which would really suck.

Obviously, UTG+1 is in raise/fold mode. His raise is gutsy, but I think it's good. The board texture suggests that nobody else would have hit this flop, so that he is reasonably sure he has the best hand. Yes, the poster has random cards, but random cards miss more often than they hit.

[ QUOTE ]
So, if I never lead with bottom pair, and don't raise without at least an overpair, am I giving up too much? Is what they actually did really "textbook" play?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know what "textbook" means, because the right play varies from situation to situation. I'm folding as UTG+1 if SB is remotely passive or if the players behind me are loose chasers. I'm not betting from SB in a loose aggressive game. I already mentioned that I'm folding to the flop raise as SB.

Yerma · #4 03-31-2006, 04:00 PM

Hi Aaron,

"Textbook" to me just means: should I be emulating what these players did as my own default plays? Because if I were in there with this many players, my hand is usually at least an overpair. So I think I may be giving up too much value in these sort of situations.

Ok, thanks for the help!

davelin · #5 03-31-2006, 04:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I play 44 exactly the same way here, occasionally finding a valuebet on the river.

As for 83s, well

1. I don't complete it preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a standard complete.

Aaron W. · #6 03-31-2006, 04:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
"Textbook" to me just means: should I be emulating what these players did as my own default plays? Because if I were in there with this many players, my hand is usually at least an overpair. So I think I may be giving up too much value in these sort of situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

You shouldn't be thinking about these decisions in this way. You should be looking for indicators as to why a play would be good or bad. For example, if there were 7 people in the pot, betting out with 83s is bad, as is raising 44. Do you see why?