When do I raise my QQ on a ultra-loose table?

[Sqwrlking]

QQ is the third best starting hand. It does play well multiway, so raise it up. You aren't doing it to thin the field, you are raising because you have a huge equity advantage. Raise for value.

Bet the flop. People with anything will call regardless, you can't drive them out. Raise for value and to not give a free card. You almost certainly have the best hand, and you have backdoor straight and flushdraws. Bet for value.

You have to play a premium hand like QQ aggressivly. You'll probably win less often if you raise preflop, since a lot of people will call more often in a big pot than in a small. But the pot will be so much bigger it'll easily offset the times you lose because you bloated the pot.

[davelin]

Grunch...

Good lord

[davelin]

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If I raise pre-flop, it's harder to push someone off a draw on the flop.

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See this post that I made recently.

[BeeRye]

-First Grunch Ever-

Raise and try and cap it pre-flop. Bet the flop, I would try and cap this, then probably check/call to the river. The 6 on the turn makes me nervous. Raising might help me identify a set, but if the table is loose loose, I'm not convinced that someone isn't just trying to push me off by raising the scare card. Just the same, I'm having a hard time putting the villain on something other than 6 (except for J or 10 since we would have seen a raise on the flop).

Now... off to read the rest of the thread.

[Lawman]

This is what happens when "experience" triumphs over logic. QQ is a great starting hand, you must make everyone pay to stick around. If you don't push these equity edges you are really hurting your long term winrate.

Now that is not to say you will win everytime, in fact you will lose quite a lot of pots in these multiway suckfests BUT you will win more bets than you lose.

This is a classic example of negative reinforcement: you read the books, start aggressively and suffer a couple of bad beats. Next time you decide you will put fewer bets in because you "know" you will get sucked out. Of course now you get more callers, bottom pair catching trips, smaller PP hitting a set, runner-runner flush etc. In the end you start praying not to get dealt AA, KK or QQ and look for tighter tables where they respect your raises....

[AJay]

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You have to play a premium hand like QQ aggressivly. You'll probably win less often if you raise preflop, since a lot of people will call more often in a big pot than in a small. But the pot will be so much bigger it'll easily offset the times you lose because you bloated the pot.

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Seems like an excellent point!

[xGoreDudex]

#1. Call down from the turn the way it played out

#2. Raise Preflop, Raise the flop, and I bet you $50 he's not going to come out betting the turn, so bet the turn, and bet the river.

You just gave up a shitload of money.

[AJay]

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You just gave up a shitload of money.

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Well, in this case, I didn't since the SB had a 6 and would almost certainly have stayed in, but I know what you mean...long term, yes.

[AJay]

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[ QUOTE ]
If I raise pre-flop, it's harder to push someone off a draw on the flop.

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See this post that I made recently.

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Thanks!!

[Absolution]

Wow, I haven't read the other posts, but I'm sure they aren't supportive of your views and go something like this:

You have to raise this preflop. Your equity edge is HUGE and you have 4 (Edit: guess only four opponents - weird converter) players of dead money there. QQ loses value in multiway pots yes, but it's edge is still giant. I'd estimate your equity at about 35% (pokerstove) or more and you only need 20% to raise. In a loose passive game you aren't going to get people to fold their draws very often, and regardless, you shouldn't be worrying about that preflop (at least I don't) - this whole not building a pot argument is probably reserved for marginal hands if that, but I rarely see it needing to be applied at this level. Worry about protecting your hand if need be once you see the flop.

Furthermore, you say you didn't raise preflop so that you can push someone off a draw on the flop, but then you check it through. This is a tiny pot now because of your first mistake, but now you can push them off weak draws by betting (or at least make them make a mistake) and you don't.

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Betting / raising on the the turn gives me the best chance to offer incorrect odds to anyone chasing, but meanwhile I've had to give better odds pre-flop and on the flop.

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Better odds? You gave infinite odds. About the only time you have to worry about protecting a monster hand like this would be if you raised this preflop, then someone limp reraised you, you capped, everybody called, and then you have to act first on a coordinated flop. Then you have a compelling reason to wait for the turn since the pot will be huge. You'll still be extremely happy though that a big pot was built and you're holding a premium hand.

To summarize:
- QQ IS ideal in a multiway pot. Suited connectors go up in value and big pocket pairs go down in value in multiway pots, but big pocket pairs are still the best holding. If I were a billionare and I lost a few % of my net worth on a bad day of stock trading what would I be: still filthy rich (bet metaphor I could come up with).

- Don't give up huge equity edges, ever. And if you can't protect your hand in any way, so be it. Just bet. So you'll end up losing a big pot a little more often. Who cares? I'd risk losing a big multiway pot a little more often rather than playing it safe and winning a few more tiny pots.

- About the only time you are looking to forgo a raise is if your equity edge is small, the pot is huge, and the flop is scary for you.

- People are going to chase their draws, and you win money when they do and you have an equity edge. If you can find a a way to make thinking players fold their draws or let passive players call with incorrect odds in a big pot, then great, but if not it's not the end of the world if you're going to win more than your fair share in the end anyway.