When do I raise my QQ on a ultra-loose table?

AJay · #1 03-27-2006, 09:50 AM

I didn't have any reads on specific players, but I knew the table was very loose.

Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, ($0.50)UTG+2 calls, 3 folds, CO calls, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, CO checks.

Turn: (2.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, CO folds, SB calls.

River: (6.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

If I raise pre-flop, it's harder to push someone off a draw on the flop. If I bet out on the flop, there's so many people in the hand, that anyone who calls, chasing a draw, has correct odds to do so. Betting / raising on the the turn gives me the best chance to offer incorrect odds to anyone chasing, but meanwhile I've had to give better odds pre-flop and on the flop.

From a pot equity stand point, I should just raise this pre-flop and bet out on the flop. That seems like the best course of action, IMHO, but at the same time, QQ is not an ideal multi-way hand...but do I really have any other option?

flo · #2 03-27-2006, 10:01 AM

Raise PF. See dev's posts why. A flop bet is debatable, but on this board i bet. Betbetbetbetbetbet.

But i'm donk, so you should confirm this [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

edit: qq isn't as good in a multiway pot as it is hu, but you are still in front, so it's a bet. If you have aa and everybody calls you will loose more compared to hu, but if you win you win big.

Kwaz · #3 03-27-2006, 10:02 AM

The horror.

Fadook · #4 03-27-2006, 10:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If I raise pre-flop, it's harder to push someone off a draw on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can somehow predict what's gonna come on the flop? Raise pf for value.

[ QUOTE ]
If I bet out on the flop, there's so many people in the hand, that anyone who calls, chasing a draw, has correct odds to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone with a flush draw or OESD is calling regardless. Anyone who's spiked a pair is sticking around as well, but so what, you've got an overpair. Now say that CO has a gusthot. If you bet and UTG+1 and UTG+2 call, CO's getting 8:1, which still isn't enough to call. (EDIT: OK, it might be enough, but it's marginal). You've probably got the best hand, get your chips in while you can.

Splossy · #5 03-27-2006, 10:12 AM

Newbie grunch:

Raise pre-flop. Then the pot would be bigger and you might not even have SB to worry about. The way you played it, everyone and their rags got to see 3 cards cheap and then another card for free. By that point SB probably made his set of 6s for 1/2 a bet whilst your strong QQ lost equity and strength.

If you're not going to raise QQ then what are you going to raise?

Fantam · #6 03-27-2006, 10:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
From a pot equity stand point, I should just raise this pre-flop and bet out on the flop. That seems like the best course of action, IMHO, but at the same time, QQ is not an ideal multi-way hand...but do I really have any other option?

[/ QUOTE ]

You just answered your own question.

You simply give up too much by not raising this hand preflop with 4 opponents.

Its the same on the flop, where you also had backdoor flush and straight draws to go with your overpair.

Occassionally it may be correct to wait for the turn to raise with overcards. But that would be when the pot is so huge (like 20sb) that it really would be impossible to protect your hand with a raise on the flop.

Also to raise on the turn, you need to know that someone else will bet. Thats more likely to happen when you raised preflop and someone else reraised.

This time, you should have raised preflop and then bet out the whole way throughout the hand.

kleos · #7 03-27-2006, 10:30 AM

grunch

At least show some aggression FFS.

AJay · #8 03-27-2006, 10:30 AM

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If you're not going to raise QQ then what are you going to raise?

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Yes, QQ is a raising hand. But as Jennifer Harman writes in SS2, sometimes, in the blinds, you might not want to raise after a lot of limpers because you're not going to drive anyone out and then on the flop, when you do try to drive someone out with your bet, they're getting better odds.

In retrospect, yes, I would at least bet out on the flop . But chasers will still be getting the odds to call -- oh well. Nothing I can do about that, and it's better than giving infinite odds. As for raising pre-flop...well, yes, from a pot equity standpoint, it's right. On the other hand, I've now given more people reason to chase on the flop...but again, oh well -- sometimes, there's nothing you can do to give incorrect odds post flop.

kleos · #9 03-27-2006, 10:39 AM

Given the limit, you are raising for value, not to drive people out. QQ will win UI from any position, A LOT, even if an over comes.

Fadook · #10 03-27-2006, 10:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you're not going to raise QQ then what are you going to raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, QQ is a raising hand. But as Jennifer Harman writes in SS2, sometimes, in the blinds, you might not want to raise after a lot of limpers because you're not going to drive anyone out and then on the flop, when you do try to drive someone out with your bet, they're getting better odds.

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I've read Harman's section a few times and feel that she's assuming a higher standard of players than you'll find at micro-limits. In her kind of games, I think people limp with decent speculative hands, not crap like Kxo. You've said that these guys are very loose so they could have anything under the sun. QQ has a big equity edge against these type of players; raise it up.