TT faces a bet on the flop

[mojobluesman]

I've posted about 6 hands like this in the last week. It's a very common problem, but the answer is still not clear to me.

Generally, if I have a big pocket pair and an overcard flops I will lead out if I am first to act or if it gets checked to me. There are exceptions, like perhaps if many players saw the flop and a A falls, but I believe I understand these situations fairly well.

However, what do you do when you were a preflop raiser and someone bets into you?

You can fold, but that's kind of weak.

You can call down, but that's kind of expensive when you may be behind with only 2 outs.

You can raise, but that's throwing in another bet that may or may not even give you any additional information if the bettor simply calls. If they raise, that's often very helpful, but do you call the raise and see the turn or toss it.

I know these things are often read related. The board texture and your other outs also matter, but if it were possible to get a GENERAL discussion going it would really help me (and I suspect many others) because this seems to happen to me at least once or twice a day and I never know what to do. Thanks.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero ?

[jaffa]

:Grunch:

Hmm, I often have trouble in these spots too. I think it's either a raise or fold situation though, depending on read. Against a very passive player who is suddenly betting into you, the preflop raiser, i'd probably fold, though this also depends on the size of the pot. Against another opponent, someone who's loser, maybe also a bit tricker, i might throw out a raise to see what reaction i get, if reraised i'd probably call and fold UI on the turn, if just called it would obviously depend on the turn card and how he acts then. If he bets, i fold, if he checks, i probably bet once more, hoping for a fold. Fold to a check raise, and if we get to a river card and he checks, i probably check, if he bets, i probably fold depending on pot.

[kigsy]

Personally i will re-raise here unless UTG+2 stands out as being very passive post flop...

[AJay]

I don't consider myself an expert by a long shot, and I too would struggle with what to do here. But here are my thoughts.

First, I want to know how aggressive this player is. Period. That's big to me. Hopefully I've got PT and PAHUD going. If he's very passive, I might fold after the flop.

If he's aggressive, I would be tempted to raise and try for a free card. If he bets on the turn, I'd fold. (Note: in reply to your comment that raising doesn't tell you much if he just calls, I disagree. The key is that, yes, you don't learn much by a call on the flop, but where you learn is his action on the turn. If he checks, I'd put him on a bluff.)

Depending on his turn aggression, I might just call and see if he bets on the turn. If he does, then I would fold on the turn. Now that depends on him NOT being aggressive on the turn but aggressive on the flop. That's not that uncommon, especially with 1) continuation bets and 2) the increased price of turn bets.

But if I have NO read on the guy...yeah, that's a tought call...at least for me...but that's not saying a lot :-)
Given the pot size, I'd probably just fold. You've only lost 2 small bets, and you're risking losing a lot more if you're not careful.

I'll be VERY curious to see what others say.

[jessie]

:grunch:

In this case, without any good reads, I raise the flop and fold to a three bet. UTG+2 could have almost anything and is testing the waters. If he just calls you may have bought yourself a free card on the turn.

I am really interested in any discussion on this topic, since it is a situation that comes up fairly often.

jessie

[Pocket3's]

Against one or two opponents, I'll try not to fold if only one overcard comes and it's not an ace. For example, I raise JJ preflop from the button. The flop is K74 rainbow. If I'm bet into, I'm probably not folding, but it's read dependent. However if the flop were KQ4, I'll most likely let it go. Tough to generlize, but obviously the fewer overcards and opponents, the better chance your hand is best.

[djhoneybear]

I think the key here is that the hand is heads up. If it is 4-handed and someone bets into you - I think the right play is to fold as there is a much smaller chance that he is bluffing. (If there is a bet and a call its even easier). However, heads up is a different story. Since a bet is pretty much mandatory by you on the flop if villian had a strong king he would probably go for the check-raise. His bet might me he hit the flop in some way (with the possibility of a weak king). I think you should want to get to showdown cheaply. I either raise the flop, bet the turn and check the river or I call the flop, raise the turn and check the river. (The first line is a little cheaper but the second line increases your chances that villian folds a better hand than you). All of these decisions are made easier by some kind of read.

[Dunkman]

How I treat this situation is so read dependent I have a difficult time discussing it generally. That being said, I raise this flop 95% of the time HU. Sure he could be betting a K, but I think he'd also usually bet a 9, and he could have a small PP or just air. If he 3-bets I call and c/f the turn ui. If he just calls I bet/fold the turn probably. If he just calls the turn I probably bet/fold the river as well...I'm thinking he'd raise TP at some point. However, like I said in the beginning, reads really help in this spot. As much as we all love "did I play my quads correctly" and "how to extract value from you're flopped royal flush" posts, these are the situations that make or break us.

Also, someone tell me if I'm really offbase here, as I still feel very uncomfortable with these hands a lot of the time as well.

[mojobluesman]

What if you are re-raised on the flop.

See the turn and fold UI or fold right there?

[jkd]

If your hand is too strong to fold, raise.

jkd