Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand

[Nick Royale]

Pretty interesting hand but having no reads makes it tough. I don't really like 3-betting the flop for over 40% of our stack and then folding, but I must admit it has some merits.

On the turn I'm likely checking. We're almost never getting a better hand to fold even if we bet both turn and river. Bet/folding the turn for about 30 is slightly better than 3-bet/folding the flop imo.

After checking the turn I don't think I can fold. We're still only behind set/65 and if villain has some combodraw (54/67 etc), 4x or pure air I think he'll fire this turn alot so I'm considering a crai.

I'm torn on both the flop and turn in this hand though.

[spivey]

I'd fold the flop sometimes, just because it's so hard to continue OOP against an unknown here.

If I'm continuing, I call and CRAI on turns like this (folding on A, 2, 4, 5, and 6).

[Nick Royale]

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If I'm continuing, I call and CRAI on turns like this (folding on A, 2, 4, 5, and 6).

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I think this is a decent plan and I add fold on a 7.

[pineapple888]

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If I'm continuing, I call and CRAI on turns like this (folding on A, 2, 4, 5, and 6).

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I think this is a decent plan and I add fold on a 7.

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Problem with this line is that it virtually forces him to play perfectly against you, unless you think you can get an unknown off TT+, which I don't.

Which isn't necessarily a fatal problem, but it does mean you better be real confident he's firing again with a bunch of worse hands.

And I don't really see how you can have that read here.

[Nick Royale]

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If I'm continuing, I call and CRAI on turns like this (folding on A, 2, 4, 5, and 6).

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I think this is a decent plan and I add fold on a 7.

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Problem with this line is that it virtually forces him to play perfectly against you, unless you think you can get an unknown off TT+, which I don't.

Which isn't necessarily a fatal problem, but it does mean you better be real confident he's firing again with a bunch of worse hands.

And I don't really see how you can have that read here.

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I think this is a turncard he's likely to fire on alot with semi-bluffs he raised on the flop. And even if you say he doesn't know we don't have Qx, why would he ever suspect we have? A Q in our range wouldn't make any sense at all.

Ime people that min-raise the flop with semi-bluffs/bluffs tend to view a call as weakness and be happy to fire another bullet on the turn (often a big one), esp on a scare card. I see this line a ton.

Now we don't know this guy is likely to min-raise the flop with bluffs, but the only likely hands we're behind is set/65 and maybe JJ/TT. That's a pretty tight range so I think an unknowns range consists of enough bluffs, semi-bluffs or worse made hands to crai.

[chiTown22]

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If I'm continuing, I call and CRAI on turns like this (folding on A, 2, 4, 5, and 6).

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I think this is a decent plan and I add fold on a 7.

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Problem with this line is that it virtually forces him to play perfectly against you, unless you think you can get an unknown off TT+, which I don't.

Which isn't necessarily a fatal problem, but it does mean you better be real confident he's firing again with a bunch of worse hands.

And I don't really see how you can have that read here.

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I think this is a turncard he's likely to fire on alot with semi-bluffs he raised on the flop. And even if you say he doesn't know we don't have Qx, why would he ever suspect we have? A Q in our range wouldn't make any sense at all.

Ime people that min-raise the flop with semi-bluffs/bluffs tend to view a call as weakness and be happy to fire another bullet on the turn (often a big one), esp on a scare card. I see this line a ton.

Now we don't know this guy is likely to min-raise the flop with bluffs, but the only likely hands we're behind is set/65 and maybe JJ/TT. That's a pretty tight range so I think an unknowns range consists of enough bluffs, semi-bluffs or worse made hands to crai.

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Then why wait till the turn? What is wrong with 3betting and stacking off on this flop?

[pineapple888]

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Then why wait till the turn? What is wrong with 3betting and stacking off on this flop?

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The idea is to get another bet out of him, then go broke on a "safe" turn card. I'm not a big fan of going broke here at all, but I do prefer waiting until the turn to move, if you are hell-bent on getting your stack in.

[bilbo-san]

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If I'm continuing, I call and CRAI on turns like this (folding on A, 2, 4, 5, and 6).

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I think this is a decent plan and I add fold on a 7.

[/ QUOTE ]

Problem with this line is that it virtually forces him to play perfectly against you, unless you think you can get an unknown off TT+, which I don't.

Which isn't necessarily a fatal problem, but it does mean you better be real confident he's firing again with a bunch of worse hands.

And I don't really see how you can have that read here.

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I think this is a turncard he's likely to fire on alot with semi-bluffs he raised on the flop. And even if you say he doesn't know we don't have Qx, why would he ever suspect we have? A Q in our range wouldn't make any sense at all.

Ime people that min-raise the flop with semi-bluffs/bluffs tend to view a call as weakness and be happy to fire another bullet on the turn (often a big one), esp on a scare card. I see this line a ton.

Now we don't know this guy is likely to min-raise the flop with bluffs, but the only likely hands we're behind is set/65 and maybe JJ/TT. That's a pretty tight range so I think an unknowns range consists of enough bluffs, semi-bluffs or worse made hands to crai.

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Then why wait till the turn? What is wrong with 3betting and stacking off on this flop?

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1) you aren't as far ahead of these hands as you are on most turn cards
2) when you c/r the turn you present (bad) villains with better odds to stack off
3) you often gain information on the turn (if villain checks behind, he is more likely to have a draw, for example).
4) villain's range for betting the turn after you call the flop and check the turn is WAY wider than villain's range for pushing after you 3-bet the flop.

There are more reasons, but these 4 are a good start (especially 1 and 4).

[pineapple888]

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I think this is a turncard he's likely to fire on alot with semi-bluffs he raised on the flop. And even if you say he doesn't know we don't have Qx, why would he ever suspect we have? A Q in our range wouldn't make any sense at all.

Ime people that min-raise the flop with semi-bluffs/bluffs tend to view a call as weakness and be happy to fire another bullet on the turn (often a big one), esp on a scare card. I see this line a ton.

Now we don't know this guy is likely to min-raise the flop with bluffs, but the only likely hands we're behind is set/65 and maybe JJ/TT. That's a pretty tight range so I think an unknowns range consists of enough bluffs, semi-bluffs or worse made hands to crai.

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Well I think you are assuming too deep a level of thinking by some random unknown. But if that's your judgment, there's no more to be said, I guess.

[Nick Royale]

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I think this is a turncard he's likely to fire on alot with semi-bluffs he raised on the flop. And even if you say he doesn't know we don't have Qx, why would he ever suspect we have? A Q in our range wouldn't make any sense at all.

Ime people that min-raise the flop with semi-bluffs/bluffs tend to view a call as weakness and be happy to fire another bullet on the turn (often a big one), esp on a scare card. I see this line a ton.

Now we don't know this guy is likely to min-raise the flop with bluffs, but the only likely hands we're behind is set/65 and maybe JJ/TT. That's a pretty tight range so I think an unknowns range consists of enough bluffs, semi-bluffs or worse made hands to crai.

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Well I think you are assuming too deep a level of thinking by some random unknown. But if that's your judgment, there's no more to be said, I guess.

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I'm not assuming any deep thinking at all. You're just focusing on the one line where I say villain isn't likely to put you on a Q and ignore the rest of my post.

If anything I overestimate how often a random player will bluff the flop. That's fine if you disagree with, I don't think folding is that big of a mistake but with my estimations I think crai on the turn is best.

As for the part you were referring to, I think it would be bad to assume villain is clueless and fear you having Qx. I agree this will sometimes be the case, but more often a player that's bluffy enough to bluff the flop will see the Q as a reason/excuse to bet the turn.