|
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Re: A discussion with Corsakh - 3betting pairs from the blinds
[ QUOTE ]
tl;dr But in the blind without reading the post, there is a stat missing in your post, which is attempt to steal. Vs an aggro villian, I will 3bet. vs a medium villian I might just call. Vs a tight villian i might still call or fold. There is a certain dynamic ingredient here, but I feel that many might overestimate 99/TT in these spots (or I underestimate it). Also TT is NOT = 99 imo. as there are plenty of mediums card flops, where a T hits vilians range (QT, JT, T8s, etc), but the is not the case then holding TT. [/ QUOTE ] Read the post man, ffs |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Re: A discussion with Corsakh - 3betting pairs from the blinds
[quote
Read the post man, ffs [/ QUOTE ] FFS [censored] diagf [censored] .. yo! just sneak peaking quickly at work |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Re: A discussion with Corsakh - 3betting pairs from the blinds
a lot of thinking went into this, more than need be.
Theres alot of math analysis here but I assume most of you guys play so many tables and your player pools are so big that you wont have built history where you can figure out what the hell do to in marginal type situations. Basically if you are far enough ahead of his range and its hard to play if you do anything but b/f, just 3b and b/f this flop all day. Also if he calls give up no matter what (cept a 9ball) |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Re: A discussion with Corsakh - 3betting pairs from the blinds
I tend to just call with midpairs in the blinds. The fact that I'm out of position is my main reason. Your more likely to make mistakes OOP, especially against a competent villain. Obviously, the bigger the pot the bigger your mistakes become. Also, against a good villain (who floats a decent %age), you cant narrow down his range until you get to the turn.
The factors that would tilt into 3betting out of the blinds are: I've seen villain fold to 3bets a good %age of the time, even in position. If he doesnt float a lot. And if i really think he is super weak-tight and I can run him over on later streets. |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Re: A discussion with Corsakh - 3betting pairs from the blinds
My analysis:
MP opens 22+,A8s+,KTs+,QJs,T9s,98s, AJo+,KJo+ = 181 combinations If we 3bet: 4bets: QQ+,AKs = 22 combinations. We fold. calls: 77-JJ,AQ+,98s,T9s = 61 combinations folds: everything else = 98 combinations EV(MP folds/4bets)= 22/181*(-6)+ 98/181*2 = -0.72+1.08=0.36 On the flop: We cbet, he calls: JJ,TT(will raise turn),T9 = 16 (our equity 9%, assume 0%) raises: AKo = 12 folds: AQ,98s,77-99 = 33 EV(calls preflop; call+raise+fold)=(16+12)/181*(-12) + 33/181*6 = -1.81+1.09 = -0.79 Total EV=-0.43 So 3betting against this range doesn't seem to be profitable. But if we were up against a loose button raiser who also raises 56s-78s, A2s-A7s, A8o-ATo+,98o and other stuff we can add at least 100 handcombinations to his range that he will have to fold preflop. In that case the total EV is 22/281*(-2)+28/281*(-12)+33/281*(6)+198/281*2= -0.15-1.2+0.7+1.4 = 0.75. So when the openraiser has a tight range, 3betting is not good. If he's looser 3betting is +EV. On top of that calling is worse in the second case, because a lot of his range won't stack off if we hit a set. |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Re: A discussion with Corsakh - 3betting pairs from the blinds
Some of these EV calculations are bad because we're not really concerned with the EV we get from stealing his raise. It negates the value out of our hand and is identical to 3betting with 72.
What's relevant is his calling range...his opening range is pretty useless. |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Re: A discussion with Corsakh - 3betting pairs from the blinds
[ QUOTE ]
Some of these EV calculations are bad because we're not really concerned with the EV we get from stealing his raise. It negates the value out of our hand and is identical to 3betting with 72. What's relevant is his calling range...his opening range is pretty useless. [/ QUOTE ] But how often do you get to showdown? If your not doing anything fancy that is not very often. In less than 10% of the cases the hand gets past the flop i.e. MP calls both preflop and on the flop. In these cases we have 9% equity, so our hand doesn't have much value. Our hand is only valuable when both we and MP are getting fancy. |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Re: A discussion with Corsakh - 3betting pairs from the blinds
[ QUOTE ]
What's relevant is his calling range...his opening range is pretty useless. [/ QUOTE ] This is so key. You 3bet w/99/TT only if 99/TT is ahead of his 3bet CALLING range. If he's only calling with TT+/AK then it's better just to call, as you're basically turning your hand (which has a lot of value) into a bluff. The same goes for 3betting small/mid pocket pairs. I used to do this to blind steals but after talking through it with my coach (yay free coaching, thanks Luke) you're basically turning those hands into bluffs, when they have way too much value. Your 3bet range should be pretty polarized between pure bluffs (54s-98s type hands) and TT+,AQs+ and should be adjusted based on how your opponent plays. If his opening range is wide but his 3bet CALLING range is tight, then you can add more bluffs to your 3bet range. If he's calling 3bets loose then you need to tighten up your bluffs and stick to value bets, but at the same time lower your 3bet standards (so include hands like 99/TT, AQ, KQ, sometimes even AJs/KJs. It all depends on their 3bet calling range). |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Re: A discussion with Corsakh - 3betting pairs from the blinds
[ QUOTE ]
What's relevant is his calling range...his opening range is pretty useless. [/ QUOTE ] That's not accurate. As a ridiculous hypothetical that gets my point across, imagine you have two players: Player 1: Raises any two cards, calls a three-bet with only AA. Player 2: Raises only AA, calls any three-bet. Can you see how a preflop three-bet would be standard with ATC against one of them but would never be +EV against the other? Same calling range, different opening range, TOTALLY different implications. Opening range is just as important as calling range, and just because your bet derives some of its value from folding equity does not mean that you are turning your hand into a pure bluff. Raising with 99 is better than raising with 72o because 99 is much more likely to hit the flop well. It's all about folding equity until your opponent pushes; then it's all about hand strength. That won't happen often, but when it does I'd sure rather have a good hand than a bad one. |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Re: A discussion with Corsakh - 3betting pairs from the blinds
[ QUOTE ]
Some of these EV calculations are bad because we're not really concerned with the EV we get from stealing his raise. It negates the value out of our hand and is identical to 3betting with 72. What's relevant is his calling range...his opening range is pretty useless. [/ QUOTE ] |
|
|