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#1
11-17-2007, 12:13 PM
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Re: Liberty Dollar office raided
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Do you think that civilians and law enforcement should be equal when it comes to legally using force or threat of force? [/ QUOTE ] You're [censored] right I do. All men are created equal. Government agents are not some morally distinct class, with special dispensation to do things that are immoral for commoners. [/ QUOTE ] I agree with this, with all of my heart. The reason we're arguing here is that he disagrees with the basis for the raid, so therefore it's "immoral". I've come into contact with child molesters who certainly felt no moral issues arose from their behavior, and that it was just a harmless activity on their part. Remember, if we don't enforce what you don't like because you think it's immoral, someone somewhere doesn't think raping your six year old daughter is immoral. Either both laws can be enforced, or neither. [/ QUOTE ] No because that guy is initiating force. There's an objective standard it's not just either both or neither that's nonsense. You draw the line at the initiation of force. 
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#2
11-17-2007, 12:25 PM
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Re: Liberty Dollar office raided
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Do you think that civilians and law enforcement should be equal when it comes to legally using force or threat of force? [/ QUOTE ] You're [censored] right I do. All men are created equal. Government agents are not some morally distinct class, with special dispensation to do things that are immoral for commoners. [/ QUOTE ] I agree with this, with all of my heart. The reason we're arguing here is that he disagrees with the basis for the raid, so therefore it's "immoral". I've come into contact with child molesters who certainly felt no moral issues arose from their behavior, and that it was just a harmless activity on their part. Remember, if we don't enforce what you don't like because you think it's immoral, someone somewhere doesn't think raping your six year old daughter is immoral. Either both laws can be enforced, or neither. [/ QUOTE ] No because that guy is initiating force. There's an objective standard it's not just either both or neither that's nonsense. You draw the line at the initiation of force. [/ QUOTE ] Your error here is in assuming I think Liberty Dollar did anything wrong. I don't. However, I also do believe that if the FBI feels the need to investigate the actions of the Liberty Dollar people, the field agents who served the search warrants aren't "evil", they're merely doing their jobs. Anyone who can consider serving search warrants even close to equal to Nazi's killing people needs a head exam.
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#3
11-17-2007, 12:29 PM
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Re: Liberty Dollar office raided
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Do you think that civilians and law enforcement should be equal when it comes to legally using force or threat of force? [/ QUOTE ] You're [censored] right I do. All men are created equal. Government agents are not some morally distinct class, with special dispensation to do things that are immoral for commoners. [/ QUOTE ] I agree with this, with all of my heart. The reason we're arguing here is that he disagrees with the basis for the raid, so therefore it's "immoral". I've come into contact with child molesters who certainly felt no moral issues arose from their behavior, and that it was just a harmless activity on their part. Remember, if we don't enforce what you don't like because you think it's immoral, someone somewhere doesn't think raping your six year old daughter is immoral. Either both laws can be enforced, or neither. [/ QUOTE ] No because that guy is initiating force. There's an objective standard it's not just either both or neither that's nonsense. You draw the line at the initiation of force. [/ QUOTE ] Your error here is in assuming I think Liberty Dollar did anything wrong. I don't. However, I also do believe that if the FBI feels the need to investigate the actions of the Liberty Dollar people, the field agents who served the search warrants aren't "evil", they're merely doing their jobs. Anyone who can consider serving search warrants even close to equal to Nazi's killing people needs a head exam. [/ QUOTE ] I obviously agree with the last point though I don't think anybody did. You can hide behind "i was told to" when you commit an evil act. I'm not necessarily saying what the agents did was an evil act but if it was. "only doing my job" isn't an acceptable excuse.
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#4
11-17-2007, 12:46 PM
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Re: Liberty Dollar office raided
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Do you think that civilians and law enforcement should be equal when it comes to legally using force or threat of force? [/ QUOTE ] You're [censored] right I do. All men are created equal. Government agents are not some morally distinct class, with special dispensation to do things that are immoral for commoners. [/ QUOTE ] I agree with this, with all of my heart. The reason we're arguing here is that he disagrees with the basis for the raid, so therefore it's "immoral". I've come into contact with child molesters who certainly felt no moral issues arose from their behavior, and that it was just a harmless activity on their part. Remember, if we don't enforce what you don't like because you think it's immoral, someone somewhere doesn't think raping your six year old daughter is immoral. Either both laws can be enforced, or neither. [/ QUOTE ] No because that guy is initiating force. There's an objective standard it's not just either both or neither that's nonsense. You draw the line at the initiation of force. [/ QUOTE ] Your error here is in assuming I think Liberty Dollar did anything wrong. I don't. However, I also do believe that if the FBI feels the need to investigate the actions of the Liberty Dollar people, the field agents who served the search warrants aren't "evil", they're merely doing their jobs. Anyone who can consider serving search warrants even close to equal to Nazi's killing people needs a head exam. [/ QUOTE ] I obviously agree with the last point though I don't think anybody did. You can hide behind "i was told to" when you commit an evil act. I'm not necessarily saying what the agents did was an evil act but if it was. "only doing my job" isn't an acceptable excuse. [/ QUOTE ] Well, there are shades of gray here. I think "evil" is a bit of a loaded word. I would refer to the agents who actually requested the search warrant as overzealous, but not "evil". I still don't think the serving agents did anything wrong. Edited to add: [ QUOTE ] I obviously agree with the last point though I don't think anybody did. [/ QUOTE ] Boro thinks that. link I was just adding that so you would know what I'm dealing with here. There are people here who actually believe police action of any kind = ZOMG! Nazis!
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#5
11-17-2007, 01:41 PM
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Re: Liberty Dollar office raided
[ QUOTE ]
There are people here who actually believe police action of any kind = ZOMG! Nazis! [/ QUOTE ] Indeed,where their reasoning leads to is the conclusion that the Liberty Dollar folks would have been :morally" justified in using force -- including deadly force -- against the agents.
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#6
11-17-2007, 01:55 PM
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Re: Liberty Dollar office raided
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] There are people here who actually believe police action of any kind = ZOMG! Nazis! [/ QUOTE ] Indeed,where their reasoning leads to is the conclusion that the Liberty Dollar folks would have been :morally" justified in using force -- including deadly force -- against the agents. [/ QUOTE ] "agents" isn't a distinct moral category is someone morally justified to use force if someone comes onto their property to kidnap them with a deadly weapon that they intend to use if that person attempts to run away? If I came into your home and attempted to do so to you would you be morally justified using force against me? It can't be right for one and wrong for the other.
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#7
11-17-2007, 01:57 PM
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Re: Liberty Dollar office raided
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] There are people here who actually believe police action of any kind = ZOMG! Nazis! [/ QUOTE ] Indeed,where their reasoning leads to is the conclusion that the Liberty Dollar folks would have been :morally" justified in using force -- including deadly force -- against the agents. [/ QUOTE ] I would absolutely agree if I saw where anyone from the Liberty Dollar camp was held at gunpoint. You cannot, contrary to the beliefs of the ACist, shoot someone for the "forceful" act of walking into your office.
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#8
11-17-2007, 01:59 PM
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Re: Liberty Dollar office raided
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] There are people here who actually believe police action of any kind = ZOMG! Nazis! [/ QUOTE ] Indeed,where their reasoning leads to is the conclusion that the Liberty Dollar folks would have been :morally" justified in using force -- including deadly force -- against the agents. [/ QUOTE ] I would absolutely agree if I saw where anyone from the Liberty Dollar camp was held at gunpoint. You cannot, contrary to the beliefs of the ACist, shoot someone for the "forceful" act of walking into your office. [/ QUOTE ] No you can't. But how about stealing your possessions and kidnapping you?
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#9
11-17-2007, 05:21 PM
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Re: Liberty Dollar office raided
[ QUOTE ]
Your error here is in assuming I think Liberty Dollar did anything wrong. I don't. However, I also do believe that if the FBI feels the need to investigate the actions of the Liberty Dollar people, the field agents who served the search warrants aren't "evil", they're merely doing their jobs. Anyone who can consider serving search warrants even close to equal to Nazi's killing people needs a head exam. [/ QUOTE ] So it's OK to bust someone's door down and take their stuff if you get paid to do it?
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#10
11-17-2007, 05:34 PM
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Re: Liberty Dollar office raided
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Your error here is in assuming I think Liberty Dollar did anything wrong. I don't. However, I also do believe that if the FBI feels the need to investigate the actions of the Liberty Dollar people, the field agents who served the search warrants aren't "evil", they're merely doing their jobs. Anyone who can consider serving search warrants even close to equal to Nazi's killing people needs a head exam. [/ QUOTE ] So it's OK to bust someone's door down and take their stuff if you get paid to do it? [/ QUOTE ] Who does this?
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