Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?

[suzzer99]

IMO there's a big difference between a spite call and a principle call. Spite calls aren't ever really going to make anyone adjust their range, because they know you won't do it every time. A principle call says "This may be slightly -ev, but I'm not folding AK to you with the CL and you on any 2, deal with it." Maybe I don't call AK there every time, maybe I do. Maybe I call AQ. I think that gives a thinking regular a little more to consider than a randomly spite calling them once a month.

[microbet]

Bhokie,

It's -EV against what range using what software?

http://www.holdemresources.net/hr/sn...alculator.html

That thing shows it as +EV against BJ's NE pushing range.

[DannyOcean_]

First, a moment to LOL at this person

[ QUOTE ]
Game theory's Nash Equilibrium applies to two player games. Calling here is -EV, but since Bigjoe pushes almost ATC here, I dont mind the call. Since he is a regular, and a good one at that, he will probably note the call, push tighter against you, and tell you he's sliding ATC.


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Some pros and cons of this hand.

con - we can push in front of him 3x when he can push in front of us.

pro - metagame considerations

con - either 30ish dollars or 70 cents lost in equity

con - Won't really change his push range much. Maybe he wont push 32o or 25o or whatev, but he's still pushing 99% in the future against you. a T9 loses more equity but works way better to actually change his range.

[kleath]

[ QUOTE ]
Bhokie,

It's -EV against what range using what software?

http://www.holdemresources.net/hr/sn...alculator.html

That thing shows it as +EV against BJ's NE pushing range.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think OP was factoring in his future EV which seems just arbitrarily figured out by him so I have no clue where he's getting those exact numbers, but in this hand its near neutral in a vacuum, you're getting bigger edges later by folding.

I agree with suzzer as well, calling T9 doesnt do much because he knows you cant just start calling there everytime so it doesnt really change his range if you'll only deviate from your normal call range if you want to spite call. AK on the other hand if he knows you wont fold it that may slightly effect his range. I think calling with AQ or AJ sends more of a message than T9, because the AQ/AJ you could actually incorporate into your range while T9 is clearly not a regular occurance.

[Velocity]

[ QUOTE ]
IMO there's a big difference between a spite call and a principle call. Spite calls aren't ever really going to make anyone adjust their range, because they know you won't do it every time. A principle call says "This may be slightly -ev, but I'm not folding AK to you with the CL and you on any 2, deal with it." Maybe I don't call AK there every time, maybe I do. Maybe I call AQ. I think that gives a thinking regular a little more to consider than a randomly spite calling them once a month.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this, and what ditchdigger said.
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If he was in the SB I'd snap call because you'll be subject to him pushing relentlessly the next few hands. Since you are on his right you'll be able to shove in front of him on the next 3 hands.

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I think there is also something for to be said for having BigJoe, who won't make any mistakes later and decrease my edge a little, gone, too. That has to be worth something.

[morphball]

[ QUOTE ]
My reasoning is that while this might be -EV for me, it is worse more -EV for him, and if I make calls like this against regulars, they will not be able to profitably push garbage on the bubble any more vs. my big blind. (he had J6).

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I am not going to read it all, but how do you expect a call with AKo to narrow his pushing range? Maybe if you show up with JTo or something he will narrow his range, but given AKo is fairly rare, I wouldn't be narrowing my range either.

[suzzer99]

I guess we assume the shorties don't want to bubble, and are something like 66+,ATs+,AJo+. At JJ+ for hero, joe's range is 100%. At TT+, AK, AQs, it's 87%. If hero is on 66+,ATs+,AJo+, bigjoe's range drops to 9%.

Can you see how putting some doubt in his mind could make a big difference?

[BHokie1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bhokie,

It's -EV against what range using what software?

http://www.holdemresources.net/hr/sn...alculator.html

That thing shows it as +EV against BJ's NE pushing range.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think OP was factoring in his future EV which seems just arbitrarily figured out by him so I have no clue where he's getting those exact numbers, but in this hand its near neutral in a vacuum, you're getting bigger edges later by folding.

I agree with suzzer as well, calling T9 doesnt do much because he knows you cant just start calling there everytime so it doesnt really change his range if you'll only deviate from your normal call range if you want to spite call. AK on the other hand if he knows you wont fold it that may slightly effect his range. I think calling with AQ or AJ sends more of a message than T9, because the AQ/AJ you could actually incorporate into your range while T9 is clearly not a regular occurance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok I'll admit I didn't do the math, it just looked bad to me, and at best close to neutral. All depends on BJs range obviously.

I don't really put a lot of stock in this for metagame purposes, all depends on how BJ reacts in the future, but IF OP wanted to make a metagame call - AK doesn't help much.

If you are only looking at it for this tournament.
Calls like this do more to hurt both big stacks, and help the smaller stacks. If he's in the sb and I know I'm not getting a chance to open push except UTG, I'll take a near neutral EV call. In this tournament OP has position to push more than BJ does, so I don't see a good reason to make a near neutral EV (or -EV) call.

[Gramps]

As alluded to, the problem is he's on your left, not your right. That makes a big, big difference for the expected EV of near-future hands.

But yeah, calling is fun to do sometimes.

[billybeartku]

if you think by calling him w/ AK here will tighten up his pushing range in the future had similar situation comes up against you, you are obv wrong. You think bigjoe's gonna tighten up his range against you? c'mon, you know it's a -EV call, meaning if you keep making the this type of BIG CALL on bubble time, I'm sure you're the long time loser.