The hand that had it all. - Page 4

Magikist · #31 03-20-2006, 02:51 AM

As to your first question, you'll have to be more clear about how I'm contradicting myself. Good players not infallible. They're prone to making bad semibluffs just like everyone else. I don't think ALL1n's skill level makes him immune from an occasional poor decision.

Given the texture of the board and the preflop action, there just aren't that many made hands that ALL1n could play so strongly against an opponent representing at least something like AQ.

The typical player does not push marginal hands but would rather get to showdown as cheaply as possibly. Thus, when a player goes ballistic against someone who's represented a lot of strength, either he has a monster or he's bluffing/semi-bluffing. Monster's are not common in shorthanded play , so pretty frequently you see blatant stone cold bluffs from even unlikely sources.

I've found this to be a pretty universal principle. With such an uncoordinated flop augmented by the draw-creating turn card, ALL1n's play would look suspicious to me.

Surf · #32 03-20-2006, 03:03 AM

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Surf,

Your reasoning exemplifies exactly the kind of destructive attitude I was referring to in the previous post.

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Sorry about that. I put effort into keeping my posts + explanations objective.

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You don't have to strive to cause your opponent to make a mistake in every hand. It doesn't matter if you make your opponent make a mistake if you're making a bigger one. I know it's so glamorous to outplay your opponent, but there's a time and a place for it, and it's not always appropriate.

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Absolutely. Trying to "outplay" your opponent on every hand leads to the worst FPS. There is a time and place for bet-3bet semibluffing. Is this that place? We have to look at our opponents play to determine that - discarding the idea of a reraise because it is, in general, spewry is self-limiting.

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In this case, you've got a big draw in a big pot. You have no folding equity. The odds are not in your favor. The correct play is very obvious once you get raised: don't put in any more money than you need to.

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I agree. If we have a big draw, in a HU pot, and villain will not fold a better hand, then a 3bet is clearly incorrect.

That said, we cannot assume that it is incorrect and abandon reraising, we should do a quick check of his hand range in light of our history together.
The key points to weigh:
-what range of hands is our opponent raising?
-of that range, do a sufficient amt fold to a 3bet?(note that due to pot size and the fact that we hold a monster draw this, mathematically, does not need to be that often - my gut says 20% is likely sufficient but i don't feel like doing the math right now.)

IMO, poet is the wrong type of tag to use this on..sure, he may raise a bit too much, but he calls down more liberally than most tags.

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Implicit in saying that "this is spewing because we're on a draw" is the notion that we will be losing bets on the river far too often because he has a made hand here that will call the vast majority of the time.

3-betting the turn with a draw against a guy who can't fold a made hand is chip-spewing, plain and simple.

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Absolutely. If he's raising made hands - and not folding them - then the reraise is senseless. We have to determine that, though, we can't just assume it is so.

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My impression is that this kind of play doesn't work against many players at all. Players on-line are notorious for two things: calling down and bluffing. Bluffing in response is the worst possible counterstrategy. In fact, to me this 3-bet just screams semibluff. A good player will pick up on this. Bad players will simply call down.

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I think you are talking yourself in circles a bit here. If we know villain is bluff-raising AT, and we also know he won't call a 3bet, then our rebluff becomes correct (because we cannot snap his bluff off by calling).

I said in one of my other posts that i think the bet-3bet is bad vs this opponent, in this spot, especially in light of the succesful river c/r. IMO, it is incorrect to assume that this line is not applicable in certain circumstance, though.

Surf

Surf · #33 03-20-2006, 03:16 AM

Magikist,

I realized that this whole thing started from my statement "bet-calling this turn is fundamentally terrible." I want to clarify on this a bit.

This doesn't mean, that once raised, calling is a bad option. I meant that when we get raised, the worst case has happened to us - 1) we are being forced to put multiple bets in as an underdog on the big street 2) our opponent has robbed us of the initiative which leads to 3) We, by calling, cannot win this hand UI, nor can we push our opponent of a marginal better hand.

If we knew we were going to be raised, we'd obviously prefer to have check-called in the first place. Having been raised, the only way to regain the initiative and give ourselves a chance to force our opponent to make a mistake is to 3bet or donk the river, whichever is more effective.

Again, we must do some hand-reading, and know our opponent. I probably wouldn't use this line on poet b/c i wouldn't trust him to raise-fold much in that spot(he has trouble with the fold part).

However, villain shouldn't range us onto a picked-up draw. We c/r'd a drawless flop vs a pf 3bettor. Stone-cold-bluff flop c/r's are very rare in light of the preflop action, because eveyrone knows that noone folds A-hi. As a result, he should range us onto pairs, both pocket and split, potentially sets, etc. If we choose to bet-3bet the turn (again I disagree that poet is a good target for it) then we are saying "you have a Q and i don't care." Rudimentary hand-reading should indicate that we have flopped a set or turned 2pair, and AK/77 should fold. If they don't, then no worries b/c we can value-bet/raise him incessantly and make a nice profit.

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All I was saying is that bet-calling isn't inherently an incorrect move, it just sucks when we are forced to choose such an inferior line, even if it is the best of our remaining options. If 2BB are to go in on the turn, all things being equal, i'd MUCH rather be c/r'ing then bet-calling, regardless of how irrational that line is.

Surf

Magikist · #34 03-20-2006, 03:24 AM

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it is incorrect to assume that this line is not applicable in certain circumstance, though

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For sure. Like you said, there are definitely cerain opponents and certain situations where 3-betting would be the optimal play.

Getting late here, gonna check out. Thanks for the thoughtful discussion.

Surf · #35 03-20-2006, 05:20 AM

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it is incorrect to assume that this line is not applicable in certain circumstance, though

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For sure. Like you said, there are definitely cerain opponents and certain situations where 3-betting would be the optimal play.

Getting late here, gonna check out. Thanks for the thoughtful discussion.

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Thanks, you too.

Surf

Josh. · #36 03-20-2006, 06:25 AM

nate, i hope this doesn't bother you but... does anyone else think that poetmagician and kcht are the same player? their numbers are almost identical. it's uncanny. and they each get tigher as they get closer to the button. that is so ridiculously weird for a good player. i don't want to start any conspiracy theories but this seems kinda odd.

Josh. · #37 03-20-2006, 06:31 AM

HATE it

against a decent-good player, he's not 3-betting you too too light from the button. so when the flop comes rags like this, you're not going to push him off anything. he's got pairs and big aces and he's not folding them. the only hands you hope to fold are KQ and KJ. the turn doesn't make me think free showdown at all. the Q just hit. if he has AK, he is NOT raising with it. that would be stupid. so if he has a hand like AQ, KQ, or even TT, he's not going to fold it to a 3-bet, and in the case of TT, he probably wouldn't have raised it in the first place. i'm not sure about the river. his hand is probably pretty strong, though if he gave up on the turn, he very well might associate your check with a strong hand being scared and not betting. and i'm sure he'll have some suspicions that you have a flush or straight. so he might check down a hand as strong as AQ (albeit probably bet an overpair)

PokerBob · #38 03-20-2006, 06:35 AM

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Hand is vs poetmagician (probably a 2p2er)

Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero raises, Button calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, Button calls.

River: (11.75 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks

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I don't get the turn 3bet at all. He is never ever folding a queen here IMHO. unless this is an intentional "set-up" play for the future, i think you are spewing. although he likely will look you up lots in the future after seeing how you played this hand. by the way, if you're gonna get spazzy on the turn with J-high and get there, bet the river. put yourself in villain's shoes; would YOU ever bet the river here?

Grisgra · #39 03-20-2006, 01:23 PM

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I think ALL1n's play is a classic example of someone trying to push back the sea.

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Great line.