Things it took me a while to learn part 8, Bet Sizing

[Uncle_Billy]

Love these posts - seriously...

Question related to the first example of maximizing value - is there a simple math calculation you use to immediately allow you to determine the best possible bet size on early streets that ultimately sets you up to make a pot sized bet on a future street?

Or asking the question in a different way - what's your stack size in terms of bb to set yourself up this way?

Asking because I love your early example - but determining in real time in advance that "ok, I need to bet AAA on the flop to allow me to bet BBB on the turn, which then sets me up for an X-sized bet on the river that doesn't look stupid" takes a lot longer to figure out than saying "OK i have YY BB post flop, so I'm positioned well to do a TT% pot sized bet on future streets (assuming board texture and hand reading cooperates) with the hope of getting it in on ZZ street"...

Does this make sense? Or is this overly formulaic? Asking because I'm sure there's prob a shortcut that allows one to determine this at a glance (similar to counting outs and quickly estimating % probability of hitting a draw).

Awesome series - there always seems to be at least one "ah-hah" moment for me in reading these...

[loosemmjan]

Bond:

You have helped my game in more ways then I can go into right now.

Mr Aejones your contribution, to this post, is also much appreciated.

2p2 FTW

thanks

~loose

I will elaborate more in my 1 year anniversary with 2p2 post.

[Dave D]

[ QUOTE ]
Love these posts - seriously...

Question related to the first example of maximizing value - is there a simple math calculation you use to immediately allow you to determine the best possible bet size on early streets that ultimately sets you up to make a pot sized bet on a future street?

Or asking the question in a different way - what's your stack size in terms of bb to set yourself up this way?

Asking because I love your early example - but determining in real time in advance that "ok, I need to bet AAA on the flop to allow me to bet BBB on the turn, which then sets me up for an X-sized bet on the river that doesn't look stupid" takes a lot longer to figure out than saying "OK i have YY BB post flop, so I'm positioned well to do a TT% pot sized bet on future streets (assuming board texture and hand reading cooperates) with the hope of getting it in on ZZ street"...

Does this make sense? Or is this overly formulaic? Asking because I'm sure there's prob a shortcut that allows one to determine this at a glance (similar to counting outs and quickly estimating % probability of hitting a draw).

Awesome series - there always seems to be at least one "ah-hah" moment for me in reading these...

[/ QUOTE ]

I think what you're asking here is basically bet 60% pot on the flop, bet 1/2 pot on the turn. Adjust those numbers based on the texture (as bond says his flop bets are usually 60-75% of flop etc). Just do this and don't worry too much about looking foolish later, but just realize that if you have 1500 left and the pot is 1300, go ahead and push on the river (if you're gonna make a bet), or if you have 1200 and hte pot is 1500, same thing.

I think bond was more trying to get at the fact that if you build a pot early in the hand, it means you can get more in later, not so much that betting 1000 with 1500 behind looks transparent to the other player (although that matters too).

Definitely don't start PSB the flop just to avoid what you think are awkward sized bets later.

[Dave D]

BTW, sorry if my post ventured into the land of hand reading, I was mostly just trying to point out things not to do and mistakes in bet sizing I often see. The hand reading aspect was incidental, and the reasons why.

[Dave D]

Just thought of something else. It's kinda obvious, but I'm surprised it's not in the thread.

Don't ever ever ever ever ever minraise.

The worst is if it folds to the SB, who minraises into the BB. I'm calling in the BB with like almost any two. The worst is late tourney, when I'm getting literally something like 5:1 to call.

All minraising does is give the opponent good odds to call.

[Ship Ship McGipp]

I skimmed this thread, a few quick clarifications:

The stack-a-donk line is not really good and overused unless you're playing clueless opponents. If poker lines were a fashion statement, stack-a-donk would have been out 15 or 18 months ago. Analogous to tournament lines, the stack-a-donk is more outdated than restealing with 7 high. Also, if you're going to check the turn to stack a donk and you whiff, YOU NEED TO CHECK THE RIVER. People traditionally don't understand that.

Another thing, someone said they'd usually check the flop with the set of sevens... no. All I can think of is no. No, no, no. No. Nah, no thanks, no, please no, no sir, no ma'am, no siree, etc. Bet.

[d2themfi]

good post bond, def a lot of good material for small stakes players in there

[jonnyd]

this is great. thanks man

[Bond18]

[ QUOTE ]
I skimmed this thread, a few quick clarifications:

The stack-a-donk line is not really good and overused unless you're playing clueless opponents. If poker lines were a fashion statement, stack-a-donk would have been out 15 or 18 months ago. Analogous to tournament lines, the stack-a-donk is more outdated than restealing with 7 high. Also, if you're going to check the turn to stack a donk and you whiff, YOU NEED TO CHECK THE RIVER. People traditionally don't understand that.

Another thing, someone said they'd usually check the flop with the set of sevens... no. All I can think of is no. No, no, no. No. Nah, no thanks, no, please no, no sir, no ma'am, no siree, etc. Bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't have said this better aejones. Pre UIGEA the stack-a-donk was all the rage, there was still so many clueless recreational players. These days 90% of players at mid and 100% of at high know it's a monster hand. There are just sooooo few situations where it's an appropriate line.

[JSchnett]

stack-a-donk is too old and overused now. I think its better when the stacks aren't very deep and seems to work better in the late/mid stages when stacks are shallower and they can't fold after they bet and can't call your 2nd barrel very often.