A commonly confusing spot for me: 2nd pair facing a weak bet

[iheartponeez]

$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG (<font color="#0000cc">$25.00</font>)
UTG+1 (<font color="#0000cc">$33.25</font>)
Hero (<font color="#0000cc">$27.25</font>)
BTN (<font color="#0000cc">$14.85</font>)
SB (<font color="#0000cc">$25.50</font>)
BB (<font color="#0000cc">$15.00</font>)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 6 players) Hero is CO T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
<font color="#777777">2 folds</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $1</font>, BTN calls $1, SB calls $0.9, BB calls $0.75

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($4, 4 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">BB bets $0.5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $2.5</font>, <font color="#777777">1 fold</font>, <font color="#777777">SB folds</font>, BB calls $2

Turn: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($9, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets $1</font>


This is a spot I always hate. Am I protecting my mediocre hand against a draw? Or am I value-betting myself against a donkey's weak ace that won't ever fold?

Should I just check/call these down?

[Genesis]

Your flop bet is weak too. As played I'd just call the turn and a small bet on a non-heart river.

[iheartponeez]

Okay, but do I make a stronger, pot-sized raise on the flop? Or do I call down?

[Profish2285]

Whatever your c-bet would be for this flop, I just like to add their tiny donk to that amount and thats what I bet. So if I would c-bet 3 here, I will make it 3.5. If I get called, I shut down.

[ispiked]

Is the turn card going to have any effect on whether we call his turn donk bet? If the flush draw gets there, if the straight draw gets there, etc. The small bet on the flop feels like a blocker in order to see a cheap turn.

[iheartponeez]

[ QUOTE ]
Is the turn card going to have any effect on whether we call his turn donk bet? If the flush draw gets there, if the straight draw gets there, etc. The small bet on the flop feels like a blocker in order to see a cheap turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

See, I usually see the line: tiny bet, tiny bet, normal/large bet. Which I can't tell if it is a moron slowplaying, someone with a weak top pair testing me and then getting confident, a drawing hand that hit, or a drawing hand that missed but sees me as weak since I've just been calling small bets.

It's honestly the most baffling line and I'm almost guaranteed to call/call/fold with something decent but not great. I'm lost as to how to handle it.

[Profish2285]

If someone donks weak on the flop, you raise them, they call, and donk again on the turn, assume they arent folding anywhere. So unless you have a good hand, just give up and find a better spot.

[JackKingOff]

First post. Go ahead an torch me if my thinking is too weak tight.

Is it standard to CB here against 3 players? I hate this flop given our hand and the action. What are we trying to protect here? The second best hand? I don't see much that we're ahead of here and when we are there are a lot of cards that can come on the turn and river that hurt us.

I think we need to either call or fold on the flop. Your stack-to-pot ratio vs. BB is 3.5, which means he's got less than 2 pot sized bets behind. There's a good chance he could be AI by the river (or even the turn) so you have less FE. After he bets and calls your raise, you don't have much FE at all.

Once you get to the turn, I think this is a fold. Of the few hands we're ahead of, some of them just got there, while others just gained outs. Yes, we gained outs too, but now a lot of them are tainted. We may only have 2 clean outs (J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]) and if we hit we may only get a split.

Please let me know if I'm missing something here, but I didn't understand the confusion. I'm just not excited about putting much money in after this flop whether I'm facing a weak bet or not.

[willyc]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a spot I always hate. Am I protecting my mediocre hand against a draw? Or am I value-betting myself against a donkey's weak ace that won't ever fold?

Should I just check/call these down?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that this is a crappy spot. One thing to note though is that he is 3 times more likely to have Ax than he is to have XhXh, assuming he called with a random hand.

I like the raise on the flop because it will often fold out a min-donker. However, I would just call the turn. If he does have an ace you're getting great odds to make a hand that beat him on the river. If you don't make your hand on the river then call only another really small bet or check behind.

If he sees you call him down with second pair, you can get a lot more value the next time you have a better ace than him.

[SuperMxyz]

Remember, many players at this level don't understand the concept of giving good odds to their opponents to draw out on them and bet LOW if they see a draw that could give them a bad beat, rather than high to punish them for drawing.


The flop raise is good. But once he calls and minbets the turn, he mostly has at least top pair and will not lay it down. I used to expect to see draws when people make flop/turn blocking bets and I'd get aggressive, but I almost always lose to calling station with a weak but better than mine hand.



Just call the turn/river if you have the pot odds and don't try to raise again on the turn because minbetters and calling stations are often correlated. Try to keep this hand cheap and make a note of the player. If he is minbet/calling with top pair, just wait and take all his money when you have him beat.