Yay slick early in BB with 4 limps; now the sb is raising

[adMIT defeat]

I think shove is standard.

[Frank Zappy]

Two choice: Raise to 600-800 or shove with shoving way out in front. Calling is just dead wrong.

[sapsuckah]

Uh, Frank? You're suggesting that Dray raise 600-800 of his 1365 chips?

Dray - never, ever do this.

Pushing here is fine. If you had a read that one of the limpers might shove over the SB raise and a BB call, then calling isn't terrible... but there's no way you'll have that good a read on anyone this early.

[dray]

[ QUOTE ]
Uh, Frank? You're suggesting that Dray raise 600-800 of his 1365 chips?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah see that's my dilemma is any decent raise is going to committ me to the pot anyway. But shoving AKo pre so early is just so not my TAG style...

[sapsuckah]

Shoving AK here, early or not, should be *exactly* your TAG style. TAG play relies on picking good, solid +EV spots and playing them aggressively. Doesn't always mean pushing, obviously, but in this case you're ahead of SB's range, there's an overlay on the table (so you're getting a good price even if SB calls with a pair), and any raise commits you... so a push here is standard and has nothing to do with whether you're TAG.

If he has KK, you're still 30% to win. Only if he has exactly AA are you screwed.

[ZenMusician]

[ QUOTE ]
TAG play relies on picking good, solid +EV spots and playing them aggressively.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is EXACTLY right! When else would you like to gamble
with AK, after 2 hours in? If I could say one sentence to
anyone playing SSMTTs, it would be:

The Donks are only around for so long - once you finally
get a hand above their all-in-calling range, (AJ+ LOL)
EARLY is the time to stack them.

-ZEN

[M1cKmAcK]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
TAG play relies on picking good, solid +EV spots and playing them aggressively.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is EXACTLY right! When else would you like to gamble
with AK, after 2 hours in? If I could say one sentence to
anyone playing SSMTTs, it would be:

The Donks are only around for so long - once you finally
get a hand above their all-in-calling range, (AJ+ LOL)
EARLY is the time to stack them.

-ZEN

[/ QUOTE ]

sentence zen? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

totally agree...

[PantsOnFire]

[ QUOTE ]
But shoving AKo pre so early is just so not my TAG style...

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know what you mean by early. If you are talking about the number of BBs you have, then I think you meant "deep" instead of "early".

Regardless, I remember reading the math for a play like this. I can't remember the book or the author but it essentially stated that if the amount of chips in the pot is 1/5 or greater than your stack, you should move in with AK. It is not an overbet, it is a solid TAG play using a good starting hand and fold equity. Increasing your stack by 1/5 or more without a fight is good any time in a tourney and getting all-in with a premium hand is also good.

This advice isn't related to either early or deep, it's related to the stack to pot size ratio which is really important for a NL player. I think a shove is a very reasonable play, if not the absolute best play.

[dray]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But shoving AKo pre so early is just so not my TAG style...

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know what you mean by early. If you are talking about the number of BBs you have, then I think you meant "deep" instead of "early".

[/ QUOTE ]

I mean flipping a coin for my tournament in the first blind level. But I completely agree with you guys on the shove as the best play.

Full Tilt Poker Game #4047468202: $5 + $0.50 Knockout (30724323), Table 65 - 15/30 - No Limit Hold'em - 20:08:56 ET - 2007/11/02
Seat 1: phantasm84 (1,710)
Seat 2: Dray (1,365)
Seat 3: NUGolf (3,505)
Seat 4: mbh1967 (1,530)
Seat 5: Galloson (1,430)
Seat 7: Luschi4590 (1,395)
Seat 8: tsdm (1,170)
Seat 9: ugafan8898 (1,395)
phantasm84 posts the small blind of 15
Dray posts the big blind of 30
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Dray [Kc Ad]
NUGolf calls 30
mbh1967 folds
Galloson calls 30
Luschi4590 folds
tsdm calls 30
ugafan8898 calls 30
phantasm84 raises to 210
Dray has 15 seconds left to act
Dray raises to 550
NUGolf folds
Galloson folds
babsyc03 sits down
babsyc03 adds 2,809
tsdm folds
ugafan8898 folds
phantasm84 raises to 1,710, and is all in
Dray has 15 seconds left to act
Dray calls 815, and is all in
phantasm84 shows [Jc Js]
Dray shows [Kc Ad]

[PantsOnFire]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But shoving AKo pre so early is just so not my TAG style...

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know what you mean by early. If you are talking about the number of BBs you have, then I think you meant "deep" instead of "early".

[/ QUOTE ]

I mean flipping a coin for my tournament in the first blind level. But I completely agree with you guys on the shove as the best play.

Full Tilt Poker Game #4047468202: $5 + $0.50 Knockout (30724323), Table 65 - 15/30 - No Limit Hold'em - 20:08:56 ET - 2007/11/02
Seat 1: phantasm84 (1,710)
Seat 2: Dray (1,365)
Seat 3: NUGolf (3,505)
Seat 4: mbh1967 (1,530)
Seat 5: Galloson (1,430)
Seat 7: Luschi4590 (1,395)
Seat 8: tsdm (1,170)
Seat 9: ugafan8898 (1,395)
phantasm84 posts the small blind of 15
Dray posts the big blind of 30
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Dray [Kc Ad]
NUGolf calls 30
mbh1967 folds
Galloson calls 30
Luschi4590 folds
tsdm calls 30
ugafan8898 calls 30
phantasm84 raises to 210
Dray has 15 seconds left to act
Dray raises to 550
NUGolf folds
Galloson folds
babsyc03 sits down
babsyc03 adds 2,809
tsdm folds
ugafan8898 folds
phantasm84 raises to 1,710, and is all in
Dray has 15 seconds left to act
Dray calls 815, and is all in
phantasm84 shows [Jc Js]
Dray shows [Kc Ad]

[/ QUOTE ]
Couple of notes here about coinflip situations. If you are the one shoving, then you have fold equity on your side. It's only a true coinflip if villain is calling 100% of the time.

Second, you called a coinfip with AK in the above hand. However, you called with odds a lot better than 1:1. You should be calling coinflips with 2:1 odds or greater every single time in a tournament, even the first hand.

And one final note. People tend to see coinflips as two overcards vs an underpair heads up, preflop. I will take either side of that coinflip if I am getting 2:1 odds. That's something to really think about.

Also, there are many more coinflip scenarios. For example, on the flop villain goes all-in. You have the nut flush draw but you have 2:1 odds to call the all-in. This is also a true coinflip in that your pot odds match your chance of winning the hand. This is the type of coinflip you might want to avoid early.