Restating My "Religion Does Good" Post More Explicitly

[drzen]

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I think your main problem is that you hugely underestimate the impact of war and disease,

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But you hugely overestimate the degree to which religiousness influences such things.

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It's curious that Mr Sklansky is so keen on the end of religion, but has no problem with money, which may not be the root of all evil but lies at the root of most conflict.

[hitch1978]

Am I naive to believe that a number of people, if told tomorrow 'There is 100% NO GOD - here's the proof', would suddenly see things like rape, murder, theft, robbery etc. acceptable?

I am not saying I agree or disagree with OP, just trying to add something that seems to be always forgoten in these conversations. And I am not only talking about devout believers here. There is a MASSIVE difference between non-belief in god, (and in the ramifications therin implied with regard to everlasting punishment/reward etc,) and knowing for a fact there is no god.

[Duke]

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Am I naive to believe that a number of people, if told tomorrow 'There is 100% NO GOD - here's the proof', would suddenly see things like rape, murder, theft, robbery etc. acceptable?

I am not saying I agree or disagree with OP, just trying to add something that seems to be always forgoten in these conversations. And I am not only talking about devout believers here. There is a MASSIVE difference between non-belief in god, (and in the ramifications therin implied with regard to everlasting punishment/reward etc,) and knowing for a fact there is no god.

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There are perhaps 3 people on this board who claim that they'd behave as you describe.

I'm pulling that number out of my ass.

[madnak]

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There is a MASSIVE difference between non-belief in god, (and in the ramifications therin implied with regard to everlasting punishment/reward etc,) and knowing for a fact there is no god.

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There are no ramifications. Unless we ascribe characteristics to God, then any possible reward/punishment is essentially random. For every possible God who would reward a given action, there is a possible God who would punish that action in equal degree.

But that's off the subject. Do you really think nonbelievers are significantly motivated by fears about the afterlife? To such an extent that their behavior would change meaningfully if they were to learn that there are definitely no gods?

I really don't think afterlife is a significant motivator. Oh, it logically should be, for people who believe in it - but then again, the majority of people act in ways perfectly consistent with their surroundings and with self interest/reciprocal altruism. A person who believes that cheating on his wife will send him to hell is just as likely to cheat as a person who has no such belief. People don't tend to respond in their day-to-day lives to these kinds of threats. They do tend to respond to immediate pain and the threat of sanctions in life.

Overall, I think morality is a matter of biology and conditioning - not of belief. And most people just don't want to go around causing chaos and hurting others.

I was affected by the theistic ideas, and I became consumed with guilt and had regular panic attacks featuring the hell I was sure I would go to. In my case, I was no less moral after abandoning the idea of God, but I'm much more functional and self-confident now (which allows me to do much greater good overall). Oh yeah, did I mention I'm happier?

[Splendour]

quote: I was affected by the theistic ideas, and I became consumed with guilt and had regular panic attacks featuring the hell I was sure I would go to. In my case, I was no less moral after abandoning the idea of God, but I'm much more functional and self-confident now (which allows me to do much greater good overall). Oh yeah, did I mention I'm happier?

Why be consumed with guilt? It seems like you are somehow mistaken in your understanding of theistic ideas. I admit, most people think when they believe they will be somehow immediately transformed. They expect a miraculous transformation on the spot. I guess you didn't get this immediate transformation, concluded you were bad and panicked. People are still individually different and will manifest changes in their own ways. Sort of like plants that grow at their own rates. Its only by staying in the religion and reading the text to get a deeper understanding of the spirit that you come to realize you can take it one day at a time and one bad sin at a time. Of course, it might speed up once you get deep enough into things. This is where the grace comes in. We can never do it all on our own. But once we start to put out our feelers to God he bridges the distance and does the rest. As a natural correlation from this process if you're correcting your own behavior you will be having a positive impact on the world around you and your peacefulness will deepen.

[madnak]

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quote: I was affected by the theistic ideas, and I became consumed with guilt and had regular panic attacks featuring the hell I was sure I would go to. In my case, I was no less moral after abandoning the idea of God, but I'm much more functional and self-confident now (which allows me to do much greater good overall). Oh yeah, did I mention I'm happier?

Why be consumed with guilt? It seems like you are somehow mistaken in your understanding of theistic ideas. I admit, most people think when they believe they will be somehow immediately transformed. They expect a miraculous transformation on the spot. I guess you didn't get this immediate transformation, concluded you were bad and panicked. People are still individually different and will manifest changes in their own ways. Sort of like plants that grow at their own rates. Its only by staying in the religion and reading the text to get a deeper understanding of the spirit that you come to realize you can take it one day at a time and one bad sin at a time. Of course, it might speed up once you get deep enough into things. This is where the grace comes in. We can never do it all on our own. But once we start to put out our feelers to God he bridges the distance and does the rest. As a natural correlation from this process if you're correcting your own behavior you will be having a positive impact on the world around you and your peacefulness will deepen.

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A fair post and worth responding to, but too far off-topic for this thread.

[InTheDark]

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Am I naive to believe that a number of people, if told tomorrow 'There is 100% NO GOD - here's the proof', would suddenly see things like rape, murder, theft, robbery etc. acceptable?

I am not saying I agree or disagree with OP, just trying to add something that seems to be always forgoten in these conversations. And I am not only talking about devout believers here. There is a MASSIVE difference between non-belief in god, (and in the ramifications therin implied with regard to everlasting punishment/reward etc,) and knowing for a fact there is no god.

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I see some really awful possibilities resulting from removing God across the board. Life would likely get worse for everyone.

The higher % of church attendees in my neighborhood, the safer my person and property.