Baseball managers are vastly overrated

[MicroBob]

I'm assuming that was Rochester. Don't know who the manager would have been but I'm guessing if he made it up to AAA as a manager he must have had some competence.
It's not all high-maintenance in-your-face type stuff with the players nor is it deeply analyzing every single pitch and play with every single player on the team.

In the minor-leagues they are also watching their players' improvements as well as their overall maturiy and composure, etc.

I talk to a manager after one game who was impressed by the other team's pitcher who didn't throw higher than anyone's waist all night but was also upset at some of his hitters' lack of discipline.
"Bob, I've got 3 guys in my mind who I'm going to tell not to swing at a first-pitch unless it's right there. I might even pull them out of our next game if they pull more of that stuff. I'm sick of them swinging at crap and getting down in the count right-away because it just kills us. What 3 guys am I thinking of?"
I guess and come up with 1 out of the 3 and he talks to me about all this different stuff that went on in their at-bats that I sure as hell didn't see.
Stuff like that I guess are the conversations I remember.
How much of that they pass on to the players is kind of up to them and what they think is best of course.

When do you ride your players and/or chew them out and when do you pump them up? Reading what your team kind of needs at what time is an art in and of itself imo although perhaps I'm reading more into that than is warranted.


FWIW - I'm really interested in a lot of this strategy and player-management stuff in all the different sports. Have travelled around in minor-league baseball as well as college football, womens and mens hoops, and hockey and the different approaches and different levels of intensity by different coaches and in the different sports has always been interesting to me.


Perfectly willing to admit to the possibility that my involvement in the sports was pretty minimal and I felt I only got a taste of learning "how much I don't know". Maybe it's possible that being around these guys even a little bit left me with a false impression that they are responsible for more than they really are and/or are calculating and observing more than they really do.

[Floyd13]

The reason most of them suck and many of us could do just as well making game decisions is the fact that it is an old boys club. Same reason politics and business is so screwed up. They don't hire the best qualified to make on field decisions, but rather the one who can be better off the field, ie. name recognition to generate interest (reason Cubs hired Lou over Girardi), known quantity (unlikely to turn out to be a nutjob), dealing with the public or media, etc. These are way more important factors to an organization than winning (money>winning), which leaves us the fan wondering how we got stuck with a manager who displays such poor decision making (Dusty Baker). Sadly, he earns his money for everything but managing a good game [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]. Also this is obvious to all us poker players because we make money through hundreds of decisions an hour. If we can't analyze situations on the fly, we'd be broke. Dusty Baker is lucky if he can decide what color toothpick to choke, I mean chew on today.

[kyleb]

BTW, this is another great example of Dynasty getting blown out in an argument then leaving.

[kyleb]

Bob,

Most of that stuff is caught by video analysis and scouts now.

As for all that intangible stuff, pretty much every ex-ballplayer managerial candidate can do it. We're saying that the difference between a respectable ex-ballplayer guy and the king amongst men Joe Torre is next to nothing; not that the difference between Assani Fisher and Earl Weaver is nothing.

[Mondogarage]

[ QUOTE ]
i always thought joe torre should have a silent strategist since his his game decisions are so [censored] bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's called a bench coach.

[Toro]

Not overrated imo. They are in charge of managing 25 guys ages ranging from early 20's to early 40's with a payroll of upwards of $100 million dollars in some cases from all ethnic backgrounds and personalties who have to endure each other from early February to October over a long 162 game season with tons of travelling and living in hotels for half the time.


Add to that the pressures of having to deal with press/media who are looking for controversies and to blow stuff out of proportion for a story and in some cities like Boston, talk radio and insane/demanding fans, it's a very tough job that few are equipped to handle adequately.

[TMTTR]

A baseball manager's primary responsibility is to be in charge of the day-to-day operations of the team. He guides the players and coaches, sets priorities, determines what roles should be played by which employees of his part of the organization and makes the immediate decisions when it would be impossible or inefficient to consult with those above him on the organizational chart.

A good manager should be able to communicate effective on a group level -- to the public and to the team -- and on an individual level -- to each player and to those above him.

Occassionaly, a manager must make a decision in a critical time-sensitive situation -- a decision that will look obvious if correct and boneheaded if incorrect.

Of course managers are given too much credit and too much blame for how a team plays and may be overpaid for doing their job. But to say they do nothing and to think that anyone in this forum could do it as well as most of the current baseball managers is silly.

[mo42nyy]

Bob-
if they have such great insight why cant Joe Torre see every single pitch wang throws in a playoff game is belt high up and when hes iup in the zone he gets roped?

As for you example it doesnt seem like anything particularly brilliant. Infact once hell tells you of the tendancy that the 3 hitters have Im shocked you couldnt guess them if you've watched this team at all.

I agree that someone off the street couldnt manage a team- but it would be more so because the players wouldnt respond well to someone who didnt play the game. its the same thing in basketball where Phil Jackson and a random coach could tell the same player the exact same thing but the player would tune the random coach out.

Jim Leyaland is one of almost no managers in baseball histroy who never played in the majors (Buck Showalter would be another) Thats a lot for these guys to overcome and they atleast played minor league ball.

A lot of people on here seem to think that these players are robots and it doesnt matter how you treat them, youll get the same output no matter what. Torre does get his guys to want to play for him. However he also goes out of his way to please "his guys". He went out of his way to get Bernie Williams undeserved playing time because he was Bernie Willaims. He didnt move Jeter from SS when they got Arod and
I dount he even tried.

"When do you ride your players and/or chew them out and when do you pump them up? Reading what your team kind of needs at what time is an art in and of itself imo although perhaps I'm reading more into that than is warranted."


Actually i dont think its unwarranted. We've all had bosses we couldnt stand and others we wanted to do good for. Some players cant take critisim and need to be coddled. Some need somebody in their face or that dont take anything seriously.
Some players are a lot more mature than others and can handle more freedom and can be trusted more (you wouldnt give a 22 year old the same clauses roger clemens had no matter how good he is) Figuring out how to handle each player is definately an art form.


WIth all of that said how Dusty Baker keeps swindling teams into giving him a job is beyond me.

[SL__72]

Is there another sport where the managers are as consistently ineffective in making strategy-type decisions?

[mo42nyy]

lol have you seen the way a lot of nfl managers manage the clock? or that they need a chart to know when to go for 2 and still botch it?