USS Liberty: Accident or Cover-up?

[PLOlover]

[ QUOTE ]
But with regard to the the Liberty incident, I still say this conspiracy theory is nonsense for the following reasons:
1. The Arabs at that time did not have much of a Navy. So trying to blame a naval encounter on the Arabs would be a tough sell.
2. The Israelis are very intelligent. The previous failed Lavon affair would make a second failed Lavon2 affair EXTREMLY -EV. The risks would FAR outweigh the benefits. Trying another incident like this after being caught in the previous bombings would be STUPID.
3. No one can provide a compelling motive for this incident. The motive in the Lavon incident was to keep the Suez canal from falling in the hands on Arab nationalists. So what was the motive here?

[/ QUOTE ]

the main problem with your type of thinking here, imo, is that you are arguing totally from generalities. while thinking in generalities is imo ok for certain things like trying to form a hypothesis or other "front loading" mental tasks, when you apply this thinking to an end result you totally toss out 99% of the available information, while also refusing to change your mind and/or consider any other argument.

In essence, you are saying you don't believe it no matter what the evidence. which is ok if you are the mother of an accused criminal or whatever, but don't expect your belief to persuade anyone else who is not also the mother, lol.

[PLOlover]

www.ussliberty.org/why.htm

[ QUOTE ]
3. No one can provide a compelling motive for this incident. The motive in the Lavon incident was to keep the Suez canal from falling in the hands on Arab nationalists. So what was the motive here?

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[tame_deuces]

Well, believe you me. You could have 30 people standing in that warrom hearing that pilot and things could still go wrong, trust me. Organizations and informationhandling is my career and I've had experience with military organizations and communication too, including comms with airplanes and the timeframes are minimal - couple this with the chaos of the 6-day war, pyramidic authority structure, overload of information and things can go very wrong.

The 'why/if' is incredibly important because nobody is denying that the ship was attacked, the interesting bit is the how/why/what/where/when.

[Felix_Nietzsche]

[ QUOTE ]
the main problem with your type of thinking here, imo, is that you are arguing totally from generalities. while thinking in generalities is imo ok for certain things like trying to form a hypothesis or other "front loading" mental tasks, when you apply this thinking to an end result you totally toss out 99% of the available information, while also refusing to change your mind and/or consider any other argument.

[/ QUOTE ]
In the absence of overwhelming facts, I believe applying Occam's Razor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor
The simple explanation is the Israeli's screwed up...

[ QUOTE ]
In essence, you are saying you don't believe it no matter what the evidence. which is ok if you are the mother of an accused criminal or whatever, but don't expect your belief to persuade anyone else who is not also the mother, lol.

[/ QUOTE ]
Evidence? If you have compelling hard evidence then please provide it. All I have seen is a lot of speculation. As for the criminal analogy it is not persuasive. The Israel's have more rationality in a fingernail than you could find in the entire prison population on the planet....

[AngusThermopyle]

[ QUOTE ]


# 1991 - American A-10 during Operation Desert Storm attacks British armoured personnel carriers killing nine British soldiers (the same number as were killed by enemy fire in the whole war).
# 1992 - USS Saratoga during a no-notice exercise that included a simulated RIM-7 launch; confusion ensued, and a sailor launched into the bridge of the Turkish destroyer Muavenet killing 5.
# 1994 - In the Black Hawk Incident, two U.S. Air Force F-15Cs involved with Operation Provide Comfort shot down two U.S. Army UH-60 Black Hawks over northern Iraq, killing 29 military and civilian personnel.
# 2001 - American F/A-18 dropped 3 Mk-82 bombs on a friendly observation post killing six and wounding 11 at Al Udairi Range, Kuwait.
# 2002 - American F-16 pilot dropped a 500 lb (228 kg) bomb on Canadian soldiers performing a live-fire exercise, killing four and injuring another 8 in the Tarnak Farm incident.
# 2003

* American aircraft attacked a friendly Kurdish & U.S. Special Forces convoy, killing 15. BBC translator Kamaran Abdurazaq Muhamed was killed and BBC reporter Tom Giles and World Affairs Editor John Simpson were injured. The incident was filmed.
* American Patriot missile shot down in error F/A-18C Block 46 Hornet 164974 of VFA-195 50 mi from Karbala, Iraq, killing the pilot.
* American Patriot missile shot down a British Panavia Tornado GR.4A ZG710 'D' of 13 Squadron killing the pilot and navigator, Flight Lieutenant David Rhys Williams and Flight Lieutenant Kevin Barry Main, both from 9 Squadron
* British Royal Marine Christopher Maddison killed when his river patrol boat was hit by missiles after being wrongly identified as an enemy vessel approaching a Royal Engineers checkpoint on the Al-Faw Peninsula, Iraq.
* British Challenger 2 tank came under fire from another British tank in a nighttime firefight, blowing off the turret and killing two crew members, Corporal Stephen John Allbutt and Trooper David Jeffrey Clarke
* 190th Fighter Squadron, Blues and Royals friendly fire incident - March 28, 2003 when a pair of American A-10s from the 190th Fighter Squadron attack four British armoured reconnaissance vehicles of the Blues and Royals, killing Lance-Corporal of Horse Matty Hull, during the invasion of Iraq.


# 2005

* American troops opened fire on a Bulgarian convoy. Junior Sergeant Gardi Gardev was killed.

# 2006

* During Operation Medusa, two U.S. A-10 Thunderbolt IIs strafed their own NATO forces in southern Afghanistan, killing Canadian Private Mark Anthony Graham, and seriously wounding five others when soldiers were trying to seize a Taliban stronghold along the Arghandab River. Graham was a former Canadian Olympic athlete who competed on the Canadian 4x400 Men's Relay Team at the 1992 Barcelona Olympics.
# 2007

* An USAF F-15s called in to support British ground forces in Afganistan drops a bomb on those forces, killing Privates Aaron McClure and Robert Foster, both 19, and John Thrumble, 21, of the 1st Battalion, the Royal Anglian Regiment, and severely injuring two others.[8]




[/ QUOTE ]

Wiki on Friendly Fire

[bills217]

[ QUOTE ]
Evidence? If you have compelling hard evidence then please provide it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhh...the Tribune article which has been linked and referenced ad nauseum in this thread?

Consistent eyewitness testimony from numerous credible sources is not "speculation."

[Felix_Nietzsche]

The link you provided has further entrenched my opinion that this was just a complete screw-up by the Israeli's. This little quote was the money quote:
"The motive is irrelevant. If motive were a factor, then Charles Manson should be released for lack of plausible motive."
With regard to foreign policy, the Israeli's are extremely rational. The listed motives provided in the link were hardly compelling. A spy ship is VERY-VERY limited on the type of intelligence it can get gather from forces on land.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident
It was pretty dumb for the USA to send an unescorted ship into a WAR ZONE (6-day War). Those that have studied the history of naval warfare will know that using trickery such as flying false colors has a long precedence in naval warfare. E.g. German Raiders in WW2 and German Supply Ships would fly the flags of different countries to sneak past enemy shipping. As far as the Israelis knew, the Arabs were pulling the same trick.

AND....the most compelling quote:
"They also note that the tense atmosphere of the Six-Day War created the possibility of such mistakes, Israel had accidentally bombed its own tank column the day before on land, and point out that the U.S. government, concerned about such dangers, ordered the Liberty further away from shore the night before the attack.[3] Finally, they note that the United States has several times mistakenly attacked its own and allied forces in so-called friendly fire incidents."

Friendly fire incidents happen all the time in wars. Occam's Razor implies that an Israeli screw-up was the most likely scenario. Now provide me a compelling motive that outweighs the HUGE diplomatic costs of attacking an ally in such an attack and I will listen......but no one can provide a motive that would yield enough benefits.

Now I suppose the Iraqis deliberately attacked the USS Stark while the USA was aiding Iraq in its war against Iran yes? Hmmmmmmmm......perhaps I can start another conspiracy theory here. Saddam who was in the fight for his life in the war against Iran, DELIBERATELY ordered an attack on his de facto ally (USA) by trying to sink the USS Stark. Saddam's motive was by attacking a country that was helping him in the war against Iran, the USA would provide even MORE aid to Iraq. Yes......this sounds plausible..... I wonder why there are no USS Stark conspiracy theories on this forum. Mmmmmmmm.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uss_stark

[Felix_Nietzsche]

[ QUOTE ]
Consistent eyewitness testimony from numerous credible sources is not 'speculation.'

[/ QUOTE ]
Uhh.....the attack is not in question.
What is question is what would be the motive for Israel deliberately attacking its closest ally? None of the silly links provided can answer this question in a plausible manner.....

So if you have hard proof of a motive ....OR.... even a plausible speculation where the Israelis could reap BIG BENEFITS from attacking their closest ally....then feel free to enlighten me....

[bills217]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Consistent eyewitness testimony from numerous credible sources is not 'speculation.'

[/ QUOTE ]
Uhh.....the attack is not in question.
What is question is what would be the motive for Israel deliberately attacking its closest ally? None of the silly links provided can answer this question in a plausible manner.....

So if you have hard proof of a motive ....OR.... even a plausible speculation where the Israelis could reap BIG BENEFITS from attacking their closest ally....then feel free to enlighten me....

[/ QUOTE ]

The Tribune cites multiple eyewitness sources who gave consistent, credible testimony that they either saw transcripts or heard intercepted radio transmissions of Israeli pilots *IDENTIFYING AND CONFIRMING THE SHIP AS AMERICAN* before firing. Again, DID YOU READ THE TRIBUNE ARTICLE?

IF that part of it is true, then any questions about motive DO NOT MATTER.

Further, the way the released tapes are numbered indicate that some are missing, the released tapes contain blank spaces, and they cover before and after the attack but not during.

Not to mention that virtually no one inside the NSA, CIA, or even the LBJ White House ever believed it was an accident, regardless of the steps they took afterwards.

[Bill Haywood]

[ QUOTE ]
What is question is what would be the motive for Israel deliberately attacking its closest ally? None of the silly links provided can answer this question in a plausible manner..

[/ QUOTE ]

Lack of knowledge of a clear motive does not by itself disprove intentionality, it just means we do not know why they did it.

Candidate motives:

1. Keep secret that Israel was about to widen the war by attacking Syria -- thus preventing the US from interfering.

2. Keeping secret the concurrent massacre of Egyptian POWs a few miles away. (I doubt this one.)

3. Some compelling secret reasons that no one has fathomed.