JJ vs. thac - NL$100 - Page 5

Xanta · #41 10-30-2007, 12:11 AM

Kaz, a c/r isn't for value, it's as a bluff and as weird as it sounds it might be +EV.

Corsakh: Don't wanna hijack the thread, but screwing with a TAGs cbets from position is pretty profitable. Floating, bluffraising flops, semibluffing, and who knows we might even hit top pair! RIO are mitigated because we're in position. I think that you're way off on 3bet or folding KQs and QJs preflop. I mean, KQs is certainly fine for a 3bet from CO vs Btn, but it's also very +EV to coldcall.

I know that in this example hero is OOP, but most of the points about where the value of hands like QJs comes from still apply. This is the classic samoleous versus EM2 thread that I found really helpful in my understanding of play in 3bet pots.

QJs and Mixing up your play

corsakh · #42 10-30-2007, 12:25 AM

I gotta go, but will read it later. Call me a prick, but the concept sounds so ridiculous to me I am preparing for a laugh [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Xanta · #43 10-30-2007, 12:27 AM

Shoot me a PM if you've got thoughts on the subject, I love talking poker with people who think I'm dead wrong, makes for good conversation.

BevillTheDevil · #44 10-30-2007, 12:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
screwing with a TAGs cbets from position is pretty profitable. Floating, bluffraising flops, semibluffing, and who knows we might even hit top pair! RIO are mitigated because we're in position. I think that you're way off on 3bet or folding KQs and QJs preflop. I mean, KQs is certainly fine for a 3bet from CO vs Btn, but it's also very +EV to coldcall.

[/ QUOTE ]

I pretty much agree w/ this...and FWIW here is my thinkin on this

Put yourself in villian's shoes here. A good 2p2er(AZ) raises from EP we hold KQ OTB. We 3bet, what does AZ call a 3bet w/ in EP/OOP that we are ahead of?? NOt much...we have to hope AZ has a wide pf 3bet callin range OOP which i dont think he does. So yea we do play IP in a 3bet pot but when we do hit we arent gettin much value at all and if we face a lot of heat we are foldin most of the time...basically hands like KQ arent playin great in 3bet pots even IP against a good opponent who basically has a narrower pf callin range. MOST of the time id rather just call and play IP against a decent opponent who is gona cbet missed flops or mid PP and fold to any resistance b/c theres nothin they can really do OOP...this is pretty much off topic from OP but I figured i could provide some legit points to why i think callin w/ KQ IP against decent villian is ok.

EMc · #45 10-30-2007, 12:57 AM

cor,

I agree with xanta

AZplaya · #46 10-30-2007, 12:59 AM

great discussion so far...I'm gonna xpost this in SSNL and see what they have to say. Home now and hand histoy is a touch different but not much. I'm actually UTG and turn is 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] not 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]...

slush420 · #47 10-30-2007, 01:12 AM

check/fold turn. you were behind top pair hands and sets but ahead of draws. turn card isn't good here at all for a 2nd barrel unless you plan on potting/shoving the river to represent a made flush. but your hand losing most of its value on the turn + being OOP vs decent villain makes this a fold.

Hail Eris · #48 10-30-2007, 01:23 AM

The point is to fold Queens and protect against draws, since we're assuming that draws comprise most of his range. I mean its not like he has to call with his draws to make it +EV to CRAI. He might even fold some draws that he should call with, like 5x6d or something.

Also, CRAI here and going to showdown would be a sick merge and great shania no matter who wins, which is not a bad goal if you play with villain a lot.

slush420 · #49 10-30-2007, 01:40 AM

you're assuming villain won't EVER check behind here. I think a decent villain would be more than willing to check behind with a queen or unmade draws here so if villain bets and you raise all in, it's probably too likely that there won't be enough fold equity to make this play +EV.

Hail Eris · #50 10-30-2007, 02:15 AM

This is why I c/f, personally. I don't know whether he will always bet queens on the turn, or whether he can even have queens (we raised UTG). I don't know which draws he might check behind with and which he might bet. However, fwiw, given his stats and this board texture, it is highly unlikely for villain to have a strong draw that will check behind for fear of CRAI, and far more likely that he will have a weak draw like 56 that can bet/fold easily.

I just really hate c/c because we have no idea what frequency he bluffs the river with.