Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shaniac)

[shaniac]

[ QUOTE ]

Shane,

I wasn't implying it was disastrous. I was acknowledging that I think its a bleed. Why can't he limp here?

[/ QUOTE ]

He can fold, too, and I'm sure he does most times, but I reckon raising is superior to limping for "metagame" or something. Based on the length of time that he tanked it to Vanessa's raise, I figured he had an overpair.

[getballed]

[ QUOTE ]
I am UG+1, my hand is disguised so well because raised PF, and hit 2nd nuts on this board w/ 2 flush cards out, if the action is back to me, it will be a push to make sure sets, flush draws pay to catch, and that a scare card on turn does not kill the action.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree

[DLizzle]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
btw preflop is really bad, and i love how ppl use "its deepstacked" as an excuse to play horribly bad preflop poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't understand why raising here is so bad? i'd raise here every time, especially in a live tourney since it's so boring. is it because we are really really deep? would you raise 74s here with 100-200 bbs? what sc's would you raise in this spot 400bbs deep?

[/ QUOTE ]

what would be the purpose of your raise? If you'd raise here everytime, you must be opening about 90% of pots, which is obviously not good. just because we're deep doesn't make preflop irrelevant or mean that you can just throw chips in. every time you feel like it. I feel like a lot of tournament players perceive 400bbs as an infinitely deep stack because they're used to playing with 20-30bbs or whatever. Raising 47s here isn't a horrible large spew but it's still not a good play, so why do it?

[Prime Time]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
flop bet is horribly small

[/ QUOTE ]

what's wrong w/ leading T400 into a T500 pot?
I probably do the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pot is about 800.

[/ QUOTE ]

oops you are correct.
Lead 600 or 650 better.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
btw preflop is really bad, and i love how ppl use "its deepstacked" as an excuse to play horribly bad preflop poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't understand why raising here is so bad? i'd raise here every time, especially in a live tourney since it's so boring. is it because we are really really deep? would you raise 74s here with 100-200 bbs? what sc's would you raise in this spot 400bbs deep?

[/ QUOTE ]

Aren't we UTG with 8 players left to act behind us and in a bad position postflop (especially since its deepstacked so we can expect a lot of calls that have position against us).

[/ QUOTE ]

why is being called so bad? if u get multiple callers and flop nothing or just a weak pair you can just check/fold.

and since it's live there are probably a few people at the table who stink and you wanna play pots with them, out of position or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't raise [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] It's just not a good spot IMO.

[djk123]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
btw preflop is really bad, and i love how ppl use "its deepstacked" as an excuse to play horribly bad preflop poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't understand why raising here is so bad? i'd raise here every time, especially in a live tourney since it's so boring. is it because we are really really deep? would you raise 74s here with 100-200 bbs? what sc's would you raise in this spot 400bbs deep?

[/ QUOTE ]

what would be the purpose of your raise? If you'd raise here everytime, you must be opening about 90% of pots, which is obviously not good. just because we're deep doesn't make preflop irrelevant or mean that you can just throw chips in. every time you feel like it. I feel like a lot of tournament players perceive 400bbs as an infinitely deep stack because they're used to playing with 20-30bbs or whatever. Raising 47s here isn't a horrible large spew but it's still not a good play, so why do it?

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm not sure how u determine from me raising 74s that I open 90% of pots from utg+1. i'm probably opening something like

22+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T7s+,96s+,85s+,74s+,64s+,5 4s,43s,AJo+,KQo

maybe a few more suited connectors and maybe A9s. That's less than 20% of hands.

[dumbndumb]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Shane,

I wasn't implying it was disastrous. I was acknowledging that I think its a bleed. Why can't he limp here?

[/ QUOTE ]

He can fold, too, and I'm sure he does most times, but I reckon raising is superior to limping for "metagame" or something. Based on the length of time that he tanked it to Vanessa's raise, I figured he had an overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shane,

I was originally going to say in previous post that I realize the argument for raising pre is for metagame purposes, disguising hand, blah, blah, blah. I was going to comment that just because he limped so deep doesn't mean that you know what he has. However, I guess this is the kind of situation in which raising pre can be an asset b/c he can be mistaken for an overpair.

Now I am wondering if this situation comes up often enough for raising to still be profitable. I suppose given implied odds (of course, I don't know the outcome of hand) and metagame maybe it could be +EV, but you have to factor in the amount of times you wiff and amount of times you get rerasied off a hand that you could have limped and called a raise behind if pot odds warrant.

You know what, maybe this is just too much discussion about such a trivial decision, but lately I find myself bleeding early b/c of the rationale you mentioned.

[Ansky]

djk you have no concept of the unreal bad reverse implied odds you have here w/ 74s 400bb deep. This isn't "tournament" deep, this is legit deepstacked poker. One of the reason super deepstacked tournaments are so +EV early on is that tournament players have no concept of what 400bb deep poker means.

When you are 100bb-150bb, even 200bb, you have a good stack for winning enough big pots against overplayed 1 pair hands, and you can flop a big draw sometimes, and u can just take down a decent sized pot w/ whatever sometimes because your hand is so disguised. When you have 400bb, you are way more likely to have a 2nd best hand if you get into a huge pot, and this hand is perfect evidence of it.

Think of it this way... When you are 100bbs deep it is very reasonable to stack 1 pair hands with 74s. When you make a 2nd best hand (but a strong one), you will potentially lose 100bb at most. When you make a 7 high flush raising utg into 8 players.... how often do you think u will win if u get into a huge pot w/ 400bb stacks? Far less often.

The deeper u get here, the more important nut drawing hands become. 98s would be an ok raise here, but 74s is just not good enough. Using the excuse that its deep and 3 bbs doesnt matter, or cause it's live and you are bored is just bad poker.

ALSO, the really obvious reason that I prob dont need to explain... POSITION. utg is not the button, so stop playing like it is. Unless you only get called by the blinds, you will be out of position with 400bbs. And believe it or not, but being OOP is MUCH worse deep, because now you are guaranteed to be OOP on many more decisions.

[MLG]

yay ansky.

[Ansky]

[ QUOTE ]
implied odds

[/ QUOTE ]


no!!!! there is no reason to think you have implied odds this deep! You are all so used to thinking of implied odds in terms of flopping sets vs obv overpairs, or whatever, NOT w/ 7 high flushes or 2nd nut straghts, or trips w/ 7 or 4 kickers 400bb deep into several players.